Red Light Runners

[scotty]

Mud Dee these days merely climbing on your bike is not safe.

It would be interesting to see stats on cycle accidents broken down, most of what i see with fatalities is that those that occur on straight roads not at intersections. However that is not to say  that most non fatal accidents dont occur there (cars turning left, cyclists going straight etc)

 

One would have to have few brain cells if any to deliberately chance going through a red light and arguing with a metal monster.

[linnega]

. Our ride group will not go thru if there is any hint that its not safe' date='[/quote']

 

The light being red is a pretty good hint that its not safe....

By that logic a green light would imply that the intersection is safe which is obviously also not the case.

[Mudsimus]

Its not safe youre right. Thats way I dont try and make it even more unsafe. 10 pages to try and justify doing something unsafe and illegal...and when another cyclists gets killed you all jump on the bandwagon again....

[linnega]

I suppose that's the point.  Jumping red lights is safer for me on my commute.  Illegal is irrelevant - flashing red lights are also illegal, but like running red lights safety comes first.  A prime example on my ride every morning.  On NMR Avenue heading out of town, I usually catch the red lights at Jelf Taylor Crescent.  By running that light when the cars from Jelf Taylor have cleared, I am able to turn into the next road before a stream of heavy traffic tries to overtake me, because there is a right turn light for the guys travelling the other way.  If I wait until the light changes green, I am forced to clip in and deal with cars travelling between 60 and 100 kph in lanes that barely fit a car and bicycle.  When a truck comes up behind me I move to the middle of the lane forcing them to change lanes as the lane cannot fit bike and truck.

 

And for the record, you haven't ever seen me jump on the bandwagon someone dies on a bicycle.  As tragic as it is, it is not related to this disucssion as most cycling deaths have been accidents - like being in a car, you could die on road. 

[bruce]

Guys, stop and think about how these things actually work.  What is the difference between a stop sign, and a traffic light?

 

Well, a stop sign is placed at an intersection so that one direction allows traffic to continue at normal speed, whilst the other direction foces the traffic to stop, look, then go again when it is safe to do so.

 

Now, a traffic light get's placed at that intersection when the traffic volume becomes too great for the vehicles that stop at the stop sign to get a chance to go through.  All that it does is follow some arbitrary timer that switches on a red light, then a green light, then an orange light.

 

So, I come along at 5 in the morning, when traffic volumes are very low, and instead of waiting for a timed light that has absolutely no idea as to whether it is safe to proceed or not, I choose to treat the traffic light as a stop sign.  I stop, look, then proceed when it is safe to do so.  Usually this is quick enough to prevent me from having to unclip, clip in, and move through a potentially dangerous intersection very slowly.

 

The most dangerous situation on a bicycle is when there is a big speed differential between the bicycle and the cars around it.  Stopping and unclipping makes this situation worse, not better.

 

We can shout as much as we like about rules etc, but at the end of the day, common sense must prevail.  Traffic control signals are not designed for bicycles riding at 5:00am in the morning.  They are designed for peak traffic loads during rush hour.  Making your safetly the responsibility of some red light blinking on an arbitrary timer is about as ridiculous as putting your pet inside the microwave to dry it off, because the manual doesn't specifically say you shouldn't.

 

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but this is how I ride, and I usually ride alone or in a small group.  Nobody here has convinced me to ride any differently.

[scotty]

Just got back from lunch, If you want to see disobeying traffic regulations try using the padestrian crossing at the local shopping center.

[shaunh]

Common sense for me must prevail!!!

I will, from now on refuse to stop at a red light even during the day because common sense tells me it is unsafe to stop because the woman behind me in her Range Rover talking on her cell phone is not concentrating and i am scared she might run into me!!!!

[Pantani]

 

Yeah... not all cyclists run red lights... There are law abiding

cyclists out there. By the same token, some motorists run red lights,

but there are also law abiding motorists out there....

 

 

 

Some motorists jump lights in the early hours of the morning because

the streets are empty, some cyclists do the same thing for the same

reason. Some motorists jump lights to get ever so slightly ahead of

where they are, some cyclists do it for the same reason????

 

 

 

Some cyclists will run a red light when the other side is clear while

motorists are queued up and waiting, obeying the rule of the road. Some

taxis will do what the cyclists do in this case when they don't see the

point in waiting?????

 

 

 

Where are we going with this?

 

 

 

Am I a bad cyclist/motorist because I do all of the above???

 

 

 

I think it's simple, the mode of transport doesn't matter, we're all

breaking the law. Does this mean it's OK. No, it's not OK It's not that

Cyclist are bad or that motorists are bad. I think South Africans in

general have a bad track record as far as road safety is concerned and

we have a definite lack of respect for road safety. You don't have to

be a cyclist or a motorist.

 

 

 

Some of us want safer roads and to this end become involved in efforts

to make them safer, some of us want to tear down the same road that

others are trying to make safe at 200km/h in our Sports Sedans, on our

Japanese Super bikes... There just isn't a culture of Road Safety in

this country....

 

 

 

Deciding to shoot an empty intersection is a decision made by the

person operating whatever mode of transport they be on, whether

motorised or human powered. There is a measure of risk in everything we

do. the street is not 100% safe, and reducing the number of people

shooting intersections won't necessarily make it safer, I believe there

are far too many variables.

 

 

 

Sometimes cars shoot intersections because they just aren't

roadworthy.... So if a cyclist is knocked crossing an intersection and

a car ploughed into them because their brakes failed, what then? It's

the chance we took being out on the road.

 

 

 

When cyclists get knocked it infuriates me, but sometimes accidents happen through no fault of the cyclist or the motorist...

 

 

 

I think anybody who goes out on a bicycle needs to realise they are really taking their lives in their own hands.

 

 

 

I am responsible for my own safety on the road. I hope that people

operating their cars, buses and trucks are responsible too. If they

aren't, then that is something I have considered before I left home. If

I am not prepared to accept that there could be people out there who

don't give a damn about me on my bicycle and I'm not prepared to chance

it... Then I'm in the wrong sport....

 

 

 

As a teenager in high school I would go riding in KZN, sometimes myself

and good high school friend James Louter would ride from Durban to PMB

and back on a Saturday. My mother told me those rides used to leave her

cold... She would worry for 8 hours straight! But she also realised

that it was the chance we were taking. She took out a policy on my life

back then that is still in force to this very day! The policy wouldn't

bring me back she said but it made sense to her to get a return on her

investment at the time in the event of something going horribly wrong,

the bike was expensive, the shoes were expensive, the wheels were

expensive. Then after a while I tried to rationalise this callous

sentiment, and the only thing that made sense was that she too had

realised that she took a chance every time she let me walk out the door!

 

Back in those days I grew up around cyclists like Roland Isaacs, Ralph Isaacs, Bruce Bedderson, Neil Abbott, Karl Henry, Trevor Henry, Hamish Otto to name but a few, we were all from the same hood! I saw guys getting knocked and be lucky enough to get up and still have an argument with the driver about who's fault it was? I suppose they were dangerous cyclists who didn't care about road safety, they did everything the rule book says you shouldn't do, including drinking and cycling! They also raced cars and trucks down Fields Hill with Karl Henry ever keen to outsprint anything with wheels at the bottom. All of this is dangerous, but I think we all know this, and when we put on our gear we accept this fact as part of the risk we take...

 

Road safety might result in fewer people being knocked, however when one is knocked and it's just a freak accident, then what? Then I tell myself what I tell myself every time I hear of anybody getting knocked or hurt or falling or crashing or whatever, it's a dangerous sport and there are risks involved. I choose to be involved and accept that risk. Hell, I could have died just last year at Selati, I came off at 65km/h and landed face first! I started trembling 2 days after the crash and a scan revealed some serious swelling on my brain! My mother although concerned (she came to stay with me for the week and a half I couldn't go to work, I just couldn't stop my body from shaking!) pointed out to everyone who visited that I was happy with what I had done to myself because I knew the risks involved!

 

 

So, anybody who jumps a red light knows there is risk attached to that, they naive if they don't. You drive through a red light at 2am because you're afraid of being hijacked. You also know that if you are vigilant you might get side swiped by another car.... There is a chance this can happen... I tell my girlfriend not to think twice about jumping a light if she doesn't feel safe. She said what if she was involved in a crash because of this, I said I hope she makes it.... (after the crash that is...)

 

No I don't think life is cheap, just think that I can't live paralysed by the thought that I can die at any moment so I'm not going to do anything. I also know that I'm involved in a sport where anything can happen, could be knocked minding my own business at a red light waiting for it to change! Then what?

 

I honestly don't think the red light thing is an issue, the risk is all the same, riding a flat road, jumping a light, riding on a freeway, chasing a truck, riding at Kayalami, riding inside the yellow line.....

 

Any of these could result in a fatality...

Pantani2007-11-08 05:45:44

[bruce]

Common sense for me must prevail!!!

I will' date=' from now on refuse to stop at a red light even during the day because common sense tells me it is unsafe to stop because the woman behind me in her Range Rover talking on her cell phone is not concentrating and i am scared she might run into me!!!!

[/quote']

 

C'mon Shaun, arguing by using extremes doesn't cut it.

 

Which would you prefer - getting flattened because you were obeying the strict letter of the law, or using your brain and not putting yourself in the situation to get flattened?

[shaunh]

Pantani, well said.

 

I think all the points mentioned ( I mentioned in my post as well) that if your are riding at these hours of day or night and safety is important, stop and proceed when safe to do so. That is the society we live in that lets us do so.

 

But a group of 20-30 riders all going thru because time is against them, different story!!

 

We do not hold our future in our hands, that is to be decided by the ALMIGHTY, but being a model citizen and adhering to the rules that are there to protect us is,  and we have to not think of ourselves, but what example are we setting for our children and / or grand children!!

[bruce]

We do not hold our future in our hands' date=' that is to be decided by the ALMIGHTY, but being a model citizen and adhering to the rules that are there to protect us is,  and we have to not think of ourselves, but what example are we setting for our children and / or grand children!!

[/quote']

 

The rules of the road are not designed to protect cyclists!  If they were, roads would look very different.  When a road engineer designs an intersection, do you think he has a cooking clue as to how many bicycles move through that intersection?  No, he uses a car counter to figure out the traffic patterns.

 

I'm trying to teach my children to think for themselves, to take responsibility for their actions.  And not blindly follow an instruction without thinking about whether or not that instruction has their best interests at heart.  There is no one-size-fits-all set of rules that is going to protect every person in every situation.  Rules are designed in the best interests of the majority of users of a particular situation.  Preventing a mass vehicle pile-up must be the focus of road rules, not whether a couple of cyclists are safe on their training rides in the morning.

[Kiwi]

Buckstopper Pity you know little about Kiwi he need not hang on for dear life with the group he can easily sit upfront with Andrew and the boys but chooses to ride where he does.Do some research on New Zealand cycling then you would get an idea of who he is.

 

Hey Mallo, have you been checking up on me he hee!!! I though I better check to see what is still on the web about me. Thankfully the stuff about the three TTs I went off course on when I first started racing in the UK is gone (I think), one guy actually offered me a compass!!!

Found this on a website though from a race in Southern England, check out the sky...thats what they call freezing fog in the UK . Freakin cold stuff.

 

See you guys Saturday hopefully.

 

http://www.beith.co.za/Media/4537A15.jpg

Kiwi2007-11-09 04:00:47

[Die Oom]

The Cape Town traffic department should get a copy of this. So should the SA traffic department!!

 

Then they should upgrade their traffic systems so that main routes have syncronised tarffic lights.

 

Next they should be able to switch the traffic lights to flashing amber in low traffic conditions, motororists (and cyclists and pedestrians) can proceed with cuation and then cross without having to stop. After all there is gadgetry out there with touch screens that can call up your great great great great great-grandmother from before Marie Antoinette; so why can't they upgrade our traffic system to something a bit more useable if not sensible!

[nellie]

 

http://www.beith.co.za/Media/4537A15.jpg

 

insane bike

[Windbreaker]

And just to emphasise the point that common sense should prevail. Every one of the cyclists on this site proclaiming that we should stick to the letter of the law is either ignorant of that law or is a very inconsiderate cyclist.

 

If you ride inside of the yellow line you are breaking the law just as if you jump red lights. The sensible thing to do is ride on the inside of the yellow lane when it is safer (i.e. sensible) to do so despite what the law says. AND sometimes it is actually safer to ride in the middle of the lane despite the opinions of those motorists who have absolutely no sense of what it takes to safely navigate a bicycle safely on our roads.

 

[Thug]

There are Pros and Cons in each argument for both stopping and going through red traffic lights. Irrespective of whatever you choose to do and as the desk sergeant in Hill Street Blues use to say........

 

" Just be careful out there !! "