Captain Fastbastard Mayhem

Not a lot at all. basically, bike on its side (45 deg) and you "counter steer" (pull left handlebar towards you if turning right and vice versa) and the more you turn the bars, the further back (towards the rear of the bike) the contact patch moves, reducing the effective wheelbase. won't work when you're upright for the reason you said before - rotating around the head tube. But as soon as the wheel is tilted, it's a different story. At the same time, your head tube to contact patch measurement reduces as well.

correct. whoever your contact was in standard bank is your broker. as an aside - I don't deal in short term insurance, but I know the ins and outs quite well, as well as having contacts who are very well respected in the short term insurance world.

Bahahahaha! As soon as I saw the notification of your reply I knew exactly what I'd see when logging in again.

Lol. Dude, one thing about me is that I admit when I am wrong. and your assertion here is 100% true

Okay... humble pie time for me. Scuppered by my own experiment. Turning the bars away from the direction of your turn, mid corner, DOES shorten your wheelbase. What it doesn't do is aid counter steering as the wheels orientation resists the turn and you will fall your gat off. So. Fabian46, you were right, mostly, and I was mostly wrong.

Sorry, what!? So if someone says it better than me, I still have to say it myself or its not admissible? So if trying to prove something I can't reference someone else's text? Thats just another level of dumb. as for the rest. I don't have time to respond in full, but I never said it was necessary. Never said you had to. All I said was that it is possible to see the effects of counter steering in a bicycle scenario by doing that experiment in a parking lot situation, and in a greater sense referencing moto for the benefits of counter steering in the moto environment - faster turn in, harder turning abilities and so on (just a que here - you can see their unput on the bars mid corner) I was JUST referencing the input on the bars. I know the entire movement on any bike has a lot more to it than just input onto the bars, but I was isolating that in relation to a bicycle. I would post more, but I'm off to a meeting. bottom line - counter steering IS possible on an mtb or bicycle at low speeds. You can see the effects of it in the parking lot test as described above. It DOES shorten the EFFECTIVE wheelbase when you counter steer. This in turn places more weight over the front of the bike, steepens the EFFECTIVE head angle and allows you to turn in faster or turn harder. All the other things (weight distribution on the bike, braking and so on) are left out for the purposes of this example. They will affect the overall equation when turning and counter steering in a real life cornering situation, but that does not detract from the assertion shown above.

precisely!

No reason to get personal when you don't understand the underlying physics... If you don't understand me, just read sliicks post. It DOES work at low speed, trust me.

Dude. you can lean the bike when you're out of the saddle. doesn't matter how fast you're going. out of the saddle, lean the bike hard (almost as if you're only in the outside pedal) and counter steer. at speed, it's that small movement of the bars in the direction opposite to thay which you are turning that allows you to turn just a little faster and harder. think about it for a second instead of trying to tell me that I'm wrong (I'm not, btw) and lean your fiets all the way over into its side. then fiddle with the bars and look at what happens to the resultant effective head angle and where the contact patch moves to, when you turn your bars to the left and right. I think you're confusing the 2 different types of counter steering, and trying to prove me wrong when thinking of the other version (which is applicable to bikes and cars) when you're trying to correct a slide, and when you're trying to reduce the wheelbase and steepen the head tube just a little. forget about braking for a while and just think about the steering and the effect that has on things.

Lol. relating to cars or 2 wheeled?

ugh. Tim. Picture it. Bike on its side, bars level. If on its rhs (rh turn) then pull the left hand grip back (counter steer) where does the contact patch move relative to the axle? rearwards. what happens to the effective head angle? it steepens.

Nope. I definitely do understand it. My understanding can always improve, obviously, but I do understand the principles. Low speed, lean the bike under you and counter steer. works better on a bicycle in this case

Ja, but you are shortening the wheelbase as well as the effective height of the bike (contact patch to top of head tube) as when you counter steer the contact patch moves backwards from the centre of the axle. This ONLY works when you're leaning over, though. I can explain it easier with the aid of a bike, In person.

used to. But not at the level where I could effectively counter steer. The parking lot test - you can shorten the wheelbase quite a bit. It DOES work. You can turn tighter.

Lol. try it. Next time you are going round in circles in the parking lot, just counter steer a bit. you'll feel yourself turning a bit tighter. not a lot, but it's there.

2 words. Magic Mary. The Muddy Mary is better than the HD. Okay, not as fast on the rolling side of things, but really. Who cares about rolling resistance!?

Yeah, he said it was the biggest moment of his life. Which, if you think about it, is pretty scary!

Double post

Yep. For an easy explanation, watch MotoGP riders when they tip it into the corners. basically shortens the wheelbase slightly which allows you to turn in a tighter arc

Yeah. different linkage design to the force and far closer to the fury in design

All 27.5 but the sanction gets its normal McBeefy upgrades in the gusseting dept and is 6069 alu vs 6061 of the others

Sanction (160mm f&r) Force(160mm f &150mm r) Helion (110mm)

That's the Sensor X, although the force x looks very similar

Also, the bearings in the Trance were probably old, 29er wheels probably had more inertia (better rolling once up to speed) and no suspension to soak up pedalling efforts. He also mentioned that no emphasis was placed on speed at time of test, yet concludes that the niner is better cos he was faster! Probably wanted to have the niner as the faster bike so he pedalled harder.

And it works