Cricket......

[DJ84]

No one is saying he should be dropped just like that but his last couple of innings have been poor. He is not young anymore and now would be an ideal time to blood a youngster in - we are on top and winning and it is a lot easier to include a person here or there as opposed to when you are down and out.

 

Can I ask you rationale about him coming in at 7? Do you think he will bat well with the tail? Does he have a great record against spin that im unaware of? At this stage AB will still keep so he wont have dual roles.

 

Taking the shine off the ball is not the only duty of an open. I think the bowling attack of an international attack is far superior to the people he is facing at local level currently. I never understand the mentality in SA sport sometimes - same as the boks playing people out of place - moving our 2nd best centre to wing ahead of countless great wingers for example.

 

The reason why an opener often starts his career at number 7 or gets shifted down to 6/7 depending on the strength of the team is that is a second revival area in general for both teams.

They often see the second new ball and are resilient against it, a lot of middle order batmen fall quickly to new ball bowling as well as early morning bowling.

 

That is the simple logic behind it although there is a lot more to it.

[JGR]

Peterson out for 21 ....

 

Another reason I would pick QDK to open is that if you pick him at 7 you will need to move other people from their natural positions

[JGR]

The reason why an opener often starts his career at number 7 or gets shifted down to 6/7 depending on the strength of the team is that is a second revival area in general for both teams.

They often see the second new ball and are resilient against it, a lot of middle order batmen fall quickly to new ball bowling as well as early morning bowling.

 

That is the simple logic behind it although there is a lot more to it.

Go on ....

 

Can you give me examples of other openers starting their careers at 7 - especially after 4 centuries at international level.

 

Also a number 7 would need to play spin very very well, especially if you team are 5 down for 180.

 

Who would open (on the assumption Petersen vacates his spot)

 

Would you consider QDK to be a bigger talent than Smith? Smith also debuted at 21

 

from Wiki

 

Smith made his Test debut for South Africa in 2002 in Cape Town against Australia, batting at number three and scoring 68 in the second innings.^[23] Promoted to open the batting with Herschelle Gibbs against Bangladesh in his third Test match, Smith scored 200.^[24] In the following home series against Pakistan, Smith (who scored 151) and Gibbs (228) shared a first-wicket stand of 368

Edited December 19, 2013 by JGR

[DJ84]

Can you give me examples of other openers starting their careers at 7 - especially after 4 centuries at international level.

 

Who would open (on the assumption Petersen vacates his spot)

 

Would you consider QDK to be a bigger talent than Smith? Smith also debuted at 21

 

from Wiki

 

Smith made his Test debut for South Africa in 2002 in Cape Town against Australia, batting at number three and scoring 68 in the second innings.^[23] Promoted to open the batting with Herschelle Gibbs against Bangladesh in his third Test match, Smith scored 200.^[24] In the following home series against Pakistan, Smith (who scored 151) and Gibbs (228) shared a first-wicket stand of 368

 

Rohit Sharma just recently,

I will have to look for names but Rahul Dravid and Kepler were talking about it the other day and they both said start him at 6/7.

Another big reason for starting him at 7 would be that he will eventually take the gloves and his batting would have adjusted to that position, therefore only placing once set of pressure at a time.

 

As for saying he is a better talent than Smith is jumping the gun by 4 or 5 years.

Smith is one of the best openers of all time never mind just for SA.

QDK has also never played test and as we have seen with many players they just don't cut it although I hope he really does prosper.

 

I Think that Faf would be the more likely person to be dropped,

I doubt his average over the last few games is much better than Alviro and in a much easier position.

[Garfield2010]

 

Can I ask you rationale about him coming in at 7? Do you think he will bat well with the tail? Does he have a great record against spin that im unaware of? At this stage AB will still keep so he wont have dual roles.

 

Taking the shine off the ball is not the only duty of an open.

 

I think he will bat better with the old ball.

 

Why did Gillchrist not open in Test matches? Generally an opener is a defensive batsmen. He needs to take the shine off so that when Amla and De Villiers comes in they can play shots.

 

I really just think because a guy scores runs in one day cricket does not automatically make him a test opener. Has he ever faced Mitchell Johnson in a test match bowling at 150km/hour with a ball moving along? Soon someone will have too and I am just scared it may hurt his career if he fails.

 

Let him score runs in the local series like all batsmen have too that wants to make the step up.

 

Taking the shine off is the most important duty in my opinion

[JGR]

Rohit Sharma just recently,

I will have to look for names but Rahul Dravid and Kepler were talking about it the other day and they both said start him at 6/7.

Another big reason for starting him at 7 would be that he will eventually take the gloves and his batting would have adjusted to that position, therefore only placing once set of pressure at a time.

 

As for saying he is a better talent than Smith is jumping the gun by 4 or 5 years.

Smith is one of the best openers of all time never mind just for SA.

QDK has also never played test and as we have seen with many players they just don't cut it although I hope he really does prosper.

 

I Think that Faf would be the more likely person to be dropped,

I doubt his average over the last few games is much better than Alviro and in a much easier position.

So the only example is a player with 3 tests behind him? I think there are far more examples of players doing well playing their natural positions/game. I understand Kelper et al know far more than me but not everything they say is golden (else he would still be the batting consultant neh?)

 

I didn't say he was a bigger talent - I asked your opinion on it. I was also not comparing current Smith but Smith at 21 - remember the guy who couldn't get into the Lions team and had to come to CPT to get a bat? He was given the opportunity to play his natural game upfront.

 

He is not taking the gloves for some time so it is a non issue at this point if he is being selected as a batter.

 

I will give you my reasons for playing him in his rightful position

 

1. He can learn the role he will hopefully fulfill for the next 10 years.

2. We need an opening bat (Smith 32/Alviro 31)

3. He is proven upfront and unproven against spin (that quality spin - not the rubbish he faces in the sunfoil series)

4. The pressure situation of being 5 or 6 down with 180 on the board if far greater than the freedom when no wickets are down

5. He might get discouraged

6. Amla might have to open, thus exposing him to the new ball

7. You shuffle the whole order to bat an open later? Its like playing Jean de Villiers on the wing

[JGR]

I think he will bat better with the old ball.

 

Why did Gillchrist not open in Test matches? Generally an opener is a defensive batsmen. He needs to take the shine off so that when Amla and De Villiers comes in they can play shots.

 

I really just think because a guy scores runs in one day cricket does not automatically make him a test opener. Has he ever faced Mitchell Johnson in a test match bowling at 150km/hour with a ball moving along? Soon someone will have too and I am just scared it may hurt his career if he fails.

 

Let him score runs in the local series like all batsmen have too that wants to make the step up.

 

Taking the shine off is the most important duty in my opinion

Based on what evidence? The evidence so far say he does pretty well against the new ball.

He opening the batting very regularly.

If he bats 7 then Amla and AB come in earlier

QDK has been around more than this season and has a best score of 194 in first class

 

First-class 18 31 4 1504 194 55.70 1755 85.69 4 8 177 31 70 5 List A 50 48 0 1724 135 35.91 1881 91.65 5 5 176 28 58 6

 

 

Would you consider Warner (leading runs scorer in the Ashes) defensive? Dilshan - defensive?

Edited December 19, 2013 by JGR

[Garfield2010]

Amla can open. He has the technique and temperament.

 

I really don't see why a team will pick a "third opener" at number 7 for the second new ball. That guy should then bat 3 should an early wicket fall as well as he is a new ball specialist???

 

If you want to win tests then you will need to bat at 3.5 and over. Do this and you will have 280 runs by the time the new ball comes around. Nick off another 40 runs and you will win more test than lose at that rate.

 

I would choose

 

Smith

Amla

Elgar (future star player hopefully)

De Villiers

Duminy

Du Plessis

De Kock

Petersen (Robin) or any other spinner

Philander

Steyn

Morkel

 

Ideally I would move Amla back to three and maybe Elgar up eventually but we don't have an opener at present.

 

Elgar and Du Plessis's position is simple. Score runs or be dropped.

 

Also start looking into Rilee Rossouw

 

I hav e left Kallis out as we need to look forward. He needs to drop 10kg's and really want to play for SA to be selected again.

['Dale]

 

Gilcrest, Kumar S both opened - kumar not so much now.

 

Thought of Gilchrist and Kumar.

Thought it was just ODIs.

[JGR]

Thought of Gilchrist and Kumar.

Thought it was just ODIs.

I also think the wicketkeeper position has changed over the last few years. Previously they had to be good glove men who could bat a bit - now they are expected to being excellent batsmen who can keep wicket

[Garfield2010]

Gilchrist did not open in Tests. Maybe he helped out if Langer or Hayden was injured.

 

You can have Sehwag, Dilshan and the likes open in the sub continent. Flat tracks and you score most runs in the first 40 overs.

 

In SA its different.

 

Dilshan will probably average 70 at home but less than 30 in SA/Aus/Eng? (don't have the stats)

 

Warner is playing well yes.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Garfield2010

[Garfield2010]

Tillakaratne Dilshan, Test batting stats Mat Inns Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Overall 87 145 5492 193 40.98 65.54 16 23 Subcontinent 60 98 3973 168 44.14 70.33 13 16 Outside subcontinent 27 47 1519 193 34.52 55.64 3

7

 

This is also assisted by his big average against ZIM and NZ away..........

 

If this guy lived in SA, would you pick him as a test opener or as a number 4?

[DJ84]

So the only example is a player with 3 tests behind him? I think there are far more examples of players doing well playing their natural positions/game. I understand Kelper et al know far more than me but not everything they say is golden (else he would still be the batting consultant neh?)

 

I didn't say he was a bigger talent - I asked your opinion on it. I was also not comparing current Smith but Smith at 21 - remember the guy who couldn't get into the Lions team and had to come to CPT to get a bat? He was given the opportunity to play his natural game upfront.

 

He is not taking the gloves for some time so it is a non issue at this point if he is being selected as a batter.

 

I will give you my reasons for playing him in his rightful position

 

1. He can learn the role he will hopefully fulfill for the next 10 years.

He will be a keeper and batman so will not fill the opener roll in his career in test

 

2. We need an opening bat (Smith 32/Alviro 31)

They have 4 years left in them hopefully

 

3. He is proven upfront and unproven against spin (that quality spin - not the rubbish he faces in the sunfoil series)

He is not proven in test

 

4. The pressure situation of being 5 or 6 down with 180 on the board if far greater than the freedom when no wickets are down

The pressure of opening is far greater especially if you not making runs.

 

5. He might get discouraged

Same point as above

 

6. Amla might have to open, thus exposing him to the new ball

Amla has opened in tests a few times and done fairly well

 

7. You shuffle the whole order to bat an open later? Its like playing Jean de Villiers on the wing

Like I said I would drop Faf therefore no shuffle.

 

One of the best ODI openers who later became a test opener was Virender Sewag who started his career down the order. I think at 6.

Gilchrest is another obvious that played down the order most of his career.

 

You have to remember he WILL be keeper and you cannot expect him to be both opener and keeper it is just not realistic.

By starting him down the order you give him freedom in test, if he is with one of the main batsman he can form a partnership. If he is with the tail he can have a go, same roll Gilchrest filled, same as Dhoni tries although he is not a good test batsman.

 

By starting him at 7 and not keeping he can focus on batting and when ready he can take the gloves.

AB has already said he wants to play at 4.

[JGR]

Gilchrist did not open in Test. Maybe he helped out if Langer or Hayden was injured.

 

You can have Sehwag, Dilshan and the likes open in the sub continent. Flat tracks and you score most runs in the first 40 overs.

 

In SA its different.

 

Dilshan will probably average 70 at home but less than 30 in SA/Aus/Eng? (don't have the stats)

 

Warner is playing well yes.

He batted at 1, 3, 4, 5,6,7 and 8 in tests

 

We also don't play all our games in SA

 

Anyways plenty other examples of offensive opening bats like you mentioned above. You could add our own Hercelle Gibbs to the list.

 

If one of those guys gets going the game is over in two sessions

[DJ84]

 

I really don't see why a team will pick a "third opener" at number 7 for the second new ball. That guy should then bat 3 should an early wicket fall as well as he is a new ball specialist???

 

 

I was referring to an ODI opener and not a test opener.

Two very different roles.

[Shebeen]

All this talk of qdk waltzing into the Test team(as an opener nogal) is far too premature. No one is doubting his one day skills, but this is a different ball game. He could end up breaking all of bouch's records, but he needs to learn how to protect his wicket first.

 

Kuhn, Smit and Vilas are all pushing valid claims over multiple seasons for a place in the test squad. Qdk did get a massive hundred last year, but not as a keeper.

 

The next opener in line would probably be stiaan Van zyl(currently scoring buckets at three).