SwissVan Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 It was mainstream practice to dope.Surely, he participated. Ironically, with all or most riders doping, Lance still kicked azzzz... Cmon, LA - give it up. Come on Dale stop being flippin stupid and stirring pooh No one admits to doping / cheating unless they have been caught and proven guilty...and even then some still deny it and practise full time hypocrisy aka El Contador.
Garfield2010 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 One dr said the other day that in total - more money have gone into research on how to hide illegal substances in sport than actual cancer research.......... The other day I read an interesting article from Bill Stapleton. They used an organogram to mark all dopers in terms of the top 3 TDF finishers over the past 20 years. Something like 90%+ of all the podium finaishers in the TDF have tested positive for steroids at some stage (or admitted like with Bjarne and Jan Ullrich etc) or missed out of comp tests like Rasmussen or made themselves guilty in some way or another. I read Floyds book and really believed him... and then what happened. Lance is like a rabbit in the headlight. Why would guys like Tyler Hamilton lie about him doping? I can understand Floyd, but Tyler and George??
'Dale Posted January 10, 2012 Author Posted January 10, 2012 Come on Dale stop being flippin stupid and stirring pooh No one admits to doping / cheating unless they have been caught and proven guilty...and even then some still deny it and practise full time hypocrisy aka El Contador.Yeah, I know, I know... Procedure.Law.Beyond reasonable doubt.Innocent until proven guilty. *Oe ja, LA is not on the Hub anyway to answer my plea*
JGR Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Don't use the tests conducted as proof, many riders who have been busted have admitted that they passed dope tests with/without complicity of the UCI. So what should be used? the word of other riders .... Maybe once or twice the results could have been wrong .... but 100's?
scotty Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Don't they first manufacture the dope, there after they need to develope tests to "find" the dope in your bloodstream? So you pass the test until the testers catch up to the dopers and then a new dope is invented again Something like that. I don't have an issue with the Feds going after LA, As mentioned in many of the previous threads on LA/Doping as long as they follow accepted procedures and don't allow any loopholes which results in the evidence being inadmissible. And yes the USA Feds have messed up investigations on grand scale before.
LOOK695 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Something like that. I don't have an issue with the Feds going after LA, As mentioned in many of the previous threads on LA/Doping as long as they follow accepted procedures and don't allow any loopholes which results in the evidence being inadmissible. And yes the USA Feds have messed up investigations on grand scale before.So his blood samples could reveal dope with the latest testing procedures. The truth will come out
JGR Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 No I do not have access to privileged information, but I know how to use Google and I have no emotional bond to the LA hero myth. A huge number of people have come forward with eye-witness testimony of doping or admissions of doping or discovering doping products in LA's house etc. A great many of the witnesses are not 'fraudulent cheats', some are not cyclists at all, and most have nothing to gain from testifying against LA, apart from the usual wall of flack from his legal and PR army. Are you familiar with the likes of Michael Ashenden, Betsy Andreu, loyal teammate George Hincapie (also never tested positive) etc etc etc? I also have been able to use this 'google' thing and it shows lots of agruements pro and con. As much as you suggest i lose the emotional bond to LA i think you should also perhaps look at the material evidence objectively. I am sure you would like to be given the benefit of the doubt before being tarred and feathered? Yes I am a fan but more so believe that someone should be proved guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt before be made the poster boy of doping. I am happy to call him a cheat if and when it becomes a fact but i doubt yuo can say the oppostite?
Garfield2010 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 So what should be used? the word of other riders .... Maybe once or twice the results could have been wrong .... but 100's? I agree. Therefore I call on the following witnesses to testify about how we have gotten it wrong and that the sport of cycling is actually very clean... :- Dr FerrariThe Festina Management TeamFloydTylerJanIvanAlexanderMr ValverdeFranciscoJose GuitierrezRoberto HerasBjarne to name a few
scotty Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 So what should be used? the word of other riders .... Maybe once or twice the results could have been wrong .... but 100's?Just saying that dope tests have been bypassed before. At the risk of being called a LA disciple i still give LA the benefit of doubt. While i can accept a guilty verdict, how many critics will accept an innocent one.
scotty Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 So his blood samples could reveal dope with the latest testing procedures. The truth will come outitCorrect not like the grand stuff up regards his tainted 99 drug test results where procedures were bypassed.
Lucky Luke. Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I also have been able to use this 'google' thing and it shows lots of agruements pro and con. As much as you suggest i lose the emotional bond to LA i think you should also perhaps look at the material evidence objectively. I am sure you would like to be given the benefit of the doubt before being tarred and feathered? Yes I am a fan but more so believe that someone should be proved guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt before be made the poster boy of doping. I am happy to call him a cheat if and when it becomes a fact but i doubt yuo can say the oppostite? I'm not sure what you're reading and I have tired of posting links the fanboys don't want to read. Your understanding of testing seems sketchy to say the least. Have you heard of masking agents, the fact that the EPO test did not arrive until at least 5 years after usage thereof became commonplace, the fact that nearly everybody who stood under lance on the TDF podium eventually got implicated or caught, the UCI's record on fairness and corruption, the mountain of witnesses and testimony against LA, his long-term association with the foremost doping doctors on the planet, the fact that the US government is investing large sums of money in bringing a case against him etc etc. I doubt anything I say here will make any difference. I was also a fan on some level, read the books etc. For me this is a fascinating story of sporting corruption within the sport that I love, it's not about fanboy or hater. It just seems silly to suspend belief at this point. Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny come to mind.
Garfield2010 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 The Easter Bunny come to mind. Carefull now..... it is one thing to accuse LA of doping, another to talk about the bunny...... put the bunny back in the box..........
GrumpyOldGuy Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I'm not sure what you're reading and I have tired of posting links the fanboys don't want to read. Your understanding of testing seems sketchy to say the least. Have you heard of masking agents, the fact that the EPO test did not arrive until at least 5 years after usage thereof became commonplace, the fact that nearly everybody who stood under lance on the TDF podium eventually got implicated or caught, the UCI's record on fairness and corruption, the mountain of witnesses and testimony against LA, his long-term association with the foremost doping doctors on the planet, the fact that the US government is investing large sums of money in bringing a case against him etc etc. I doubt anything I say here will make any difference. I was also a fan on some level, read the books etc. For me this is a fascinating story of sporting corruption within the sport that I love, it's not about fanboy or hater. It just seems silly to suspend belief at this point. Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny come to mind. Indeed, one really needs to look at it in two camps. The first been we can all accept that he is/ was a superior athlete, irrespective of any chemical enhancement one simply has to accept he was damn good. The second is of course his ethical and moral behavior. Dont get me wrong, on the one hand I can look at his achievements and say "well done" but personally I am no fan of LA, simply because my perception of his attitude to others and his behavior as a human is poor. To sum it up, I think he was a great athlete, but a piss poor human being.
Garfield2010 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 To sum it up, I think he was a great athlete, but a piss poor human being. My question would be the following: Would Lance have won 7 TDF's titles had he and his team not have doped? For all practical purposes we can assume that most of his teammates doped (has been proven). I remember that one year with Floyd riding so fast even Lance struggled to keep up...... Yes he is a superior athlete and you still need that will power even if everyone taking part is doping........ I just wonder....
101SCC Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 So what should be used? the word of other riders .... Maybe once or twice the results could have been wrong .... but 100's? You really do need to read more. He has had tests that were positive, those are the tests they are trying to release, legally there are walls and procedures. There is also a question of $100,000 "donated" to the UCI after a meeting with the UCI, Bruyneel and LA after the positive tests. Results where not released! Much more you need to learn, most having already been discussed at length right here on the Ol Hub...
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