SwissVan Posted November 6, 2012 Share Now is the right time to start with it as your training should now be migrated from the "off-peak" period to the "pre-peak" period, hoping you have done enough of the long slow distance (that's the LSD) stuff up to now. This type of training should take you right through to March, however, the duration and intensity should be tweaked as you progress and for the "peak" period which should be introduced by beginning to middle Jan 13. Intensity and duration should be based on personal progress but work towards making these 2-hour session. It is more fun to use this fartlek and also more applicable for mountain biking apposed to riding a stretch up-and-down for intervals, but it does require a bit more willpower and is nice to do with a riding buddy. It also teaches you to retain your effort over variable terrain - we are often used to stop pedaling on descents ... I'm a firm believer in simulating the actual type of event (and intensity) during training. The intervals you mentioned are a proven training method BUT what about a more specific to mtb stage racing type of interval, i.e. longer intervals By this I mean something like 3 or 4 days of consecutive hard riding at LT pace with a few intervals as you explained earlier thrown in for “fun” on each day. Obvisiouly this needs to be done with caution (listen to your body)and once the base LSD and basic interval training sessions have been done. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enticement Posted November 7, 2012 Share I'm a firm believer in simulating the actual type of event (and intensity) during training. The intervals you mentioned are a proven training method BUT what about a more specific to mtb stage racing type of interval, i.e. longer intervals By this I mean something like 3 or 4 days of consecutive hard riding at LT pace with a few intervals as you explained earlier thrown in for “fun” on each day. Obvisiouly this needs to be done with caution (listen to your body)and once the base LSD and basic interval training sessions have been done. What do you think? Good advice, you are 100% right - for the Epic its desperately essential to do the back-to-back high intensity (HIT) stuff but you can only do that when your are "seasoned" for that. So it is a matter of customizing you program to "grow" into it, starting with shorter sessions and extending the duration over a 4-6 week period. If your body is not prepared for it, the risk of overtraining is high, especially for riders that have left the HIT sessions for too late in their preparation periods. But remember, a 800m athlete never runs 800m for training - he does 600m/1000m and uses races for racing 800m. The same applies, you need not do 8 days of back-to-back, rather do 2-days HIT, active rest 1 day, 3-days HIT, active rest 1 day in a 7-day training week, with the next week easier for recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enticement Posted November 7, 2012 Share I guess it has to be # 3.I doubt you will find a road straight & long enough or a wind consistent enough to do 10min of max riding nor will you probably find a road that will have a consistent 15% gradient (riding back down the hill in under a minute would be tough) but you will probably find a flat stretch. Does the 1 min rest infer active recovery or complete rest ? Hi ricochet_rabbit, the scenarios merely served as example to stress a point - it was actually 5 x (2min @ max, 1min rest), and "rest" should be to 65-75% of max. But you are right about the 10min stretch, however, if you can do 10min intervals its great as it serves as a better mountain bike simulation, forcing you to maintain intensity when negotiating more technical terrain and descents. The amount of variables in mountain biking is the reason why there are such a small number of academic publications on the sport (with lots on road cycling) requiring creative application of coaching principles. Edited November 7, 2012 by Enticement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helpmytrap Posted November 7, 2012 Share Saturday intervals; either 2x30min @ 300W or 3x20min @ 300W. It's horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxic Posted November 7, 2012 Share Saturday intervals; either 2x30min @ 300W or 3x20min @ 300W. It's horrible. Ouch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enticement Posted November 7, 2012 Share Saturday intervals; either 2x30min @ 300W or 3x20min @ 300W. It's horrible. This is good going! Is 300W max output or average, and over what type of terrain? Mtb requires bursts of energy apposed to road cycling that has much less spikes in the output graph, and that is what you should focus on in your prep, counting those peaks! Also, try to measure/view it as % of max - Philip Buys will view 300W as a good "warmup" (purely as an example). It is then easier to calculate how much time you spend per period in what zone, as that should change between pre-peak and peak periods. The duration you do is also great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helpmytrap Posted November 7, 2012 Share This is good going! Is 300W max output or average, and over what type of terrain? Mtb requires bursts of energy apposed to road cycling that has much less spikes in the output graph, and that is what you should focus on in your prep, counting those peaks! Also, try to measure/view it as % of max - Philip Buys will view 300W as a good "warmup" (purely as an example). It is then easier to calculate how much time you spend per period in what zone, as that should change between pre-peak and peak periods. The duration you do is also great!It's the average over the interval on the mtb. I try to do it on flat to gradual-inclined district roads. I hear what you are saying in terms of %, but the watts are easier to work with while on the bike. As for the bursts, that falls into the training done in the week. Recently started a training programme from Hunter Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enticement Posted November 7, 2012 Share It's the average over the interval on the mtb. I try to do it on flat to gradual-inclined district roads. I hear what you are saying in terms of %, but the watts are easier to work with while on the bike. As for the bursts, that falls into the training done in the week. Recently started a training programme from Hunter Allen. You're in good hands - stick to your coach! Please continue sharing your progress with us ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonball Posted November 7, 2012 Share Hi Guys, apologies for my first post to be a little attacking but: Is it just me or would anyone else be concerned if a coach advocated doing 100% max efforts 3-4 months out from a 8 day stage race. I'm all for intervals but I think Enticements battle plan will lead to a "battle to start the epic", assuming I have read this correctly and he is indeed advocating multiple max effort repeats of 10 minutes 4 months out from the event. I'm not a qualified coach but I've done enough endurance events at the very front of the field to give that kind of advice a swerve. It's a pity because I think people are truly interested in picking up some knowledge and advice on this thread from wherever it might come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enticement Posted November 7, 2012 Share Hi Guys, apologies for my first post to be a little attacking but: Is it just me or would anyone else be concerned if a coach advocated doing 100% max efforts 3-4 months out from a 8 day stage race. I'm all for intervals but I think Enticements battle plan will lead to a "battle to start the epic", assuming I have read this correctly and he is indeed advocating multiple max effort repeats of 10 minutes 4 months out from the event. I'm not a qualified coach but I've done enough endurance events at the very front of the field to give that kind of advice a swerve. It's a pity because I think people are truly interested in picking up some knowledge and advice on this thread from wherever it might come. You read the scenario I used to stress a specific point wrong - these were actually 5x (2min @ max; 1min rest) intervals. As for the intensity, if you're not able to ride at max effort for short periods now, boy oh boy, Epic is going to be hell as there you will be doing long periods at max! I can cover you with research on the effect of HIT vs LIT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissVan Posted November 7, 2012 Share .....Snipped....As for the intensity, if you're not able to ride at max effort for short periods now, boy oh boy, Epic is going to be hell as there you will be doing long periods at max! I can cover you with research on the effect of HIT vs LIT. Hmm.... based on personal experience i respectfully disagree there. I did epic only on LSD type training with no HIT or LT intervals and managed to finish quite comfortably (albeit it closer to the skilpad end than the racing snake end) and if i recall correctly my avg HR for the entire event was in the low 120's (LT = 161 and MHR = 187). My point being that LSD training will be fine imho provided you are prepared to ride the entire event at a similar pace. Yes if you want to finish in the top half of the field then the appropriate higher intensity training will be required in addition to the LSD Hey E: Thanks for the interesting posts of late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaco-fiets Posted November 7, 2012 Share Where should you be on Epic training? Well lately it seems obvious.........you should be on EPO Enticement 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonball Posted November 7, 2012 Share You read the scenario I used to stress a specific point wrong - these were actually 5x (2min @ max; 1min rest) intervals. As for the intensity, if you're not able to ride at max effort for short periods now, boy oh boy, Epic is going to be hell as there you will be doing long periods at max! I can cover you with research on the effect of HIT vs LIT. Anyone can ride at max effort for short periods - I hardly think a determinant of someone's ability at Epic. My response was to the impression created ( perhaps incorrectly on my part) that max effort intervals of 10 minutes were required this far out from the Epic, if ever. For a race of that nature wouldn't sustained efforts and threshold repeats be more likely to deliver the appropriate stimulus of long stages over a multi-day event, as opposed to short all out intervals which would be more appropriate for say a track cyclist? Training for short bursts of acceleration strikes me as odd this far out from epic, perhaps for XC and road cycling it's required to bridge gaps and break away but I cant see huge upside to taking yourself way above threshold in an event like epic for anyone but the top teams. On the literature point: I can find literature anywhere to support all sorts of claims - my point was and remains: do you really think all out efforts are optimal for Epic training? If that's the case, lets have marathoners and Ironman athletes doing 100m repeats rather than the sustained threshold efforts? I'm not saying there is no place for max effort / VO2 training, just struggling to see it being appropriate for guys who don't know exactly what they are doing (lets say outside top 25 teams). Maybe my assumption of what constitutes max-effort should also be clear. It means you cant go any harder :ie max HR. Sorry to disagree with you but endurance sports just don't see long periods of sustained max efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonball Posted November 7, 2012 Share Anyone can ride at max effort for short periods - I hardly think a determinant of someone's ability at Epic. My response was to the impression created ( perhaps incorrectly on my part) that max effort intervals of 10 minutes were required this far out from the Epic, if ever. For a race of that nature wouldn't sustained efforts and threshold repeats be more likely to deliver the appropriate stimulus of long stages over a multi-day event, as opposed to short all out intervals which would be more appropriate for say a track cyclist? Training for short bursts of acceleration strikes me as odd this far out from epic, perhaps for XC and road cycling it's required to bridge gaps and break away but I cant see huge upside to taking yourself way above threshold in an event like epic for anyone but the top teams. On the literature point: I can find literature anywhere to support all sorts of claims - my point was and remains: do you really think all out efforts are optimal for Epic training? If that's the case, lets have marathoners and Ironman athletes doing 100m repeats rather than the sustained threshold efforts? I'm not saying there is no place for max effort / VO2 training, just struggling to see it being appropriate for guys who don't know exactly what they are doing (lets say outside top 25 teams). Maybe my assumption of what constitutes max-effort should also be clear. It means you cant go any harder :ie max HR. Sorry to disagree with you but endurance sports just don't see long periods of sustained max efforts. Also to be clear. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm honestly interested in the viewpoints and picking up tips. So please don't be defensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissVan Posted November 7, 2012 Share Also to be clear. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm honestly interested in the viewpoints and picking up tips. So please don't be defensive? Good questions Cannonball Hijack Seeing you only got 3 posts and recently joined you should know that you have to post a pic of your bike on your couch and introduce yourself.... Bijack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonball Posted November 7, 2012 Share "Seeing you only got 3 posts and recently joined you should know that you have to post a pic of your bike on your couch and introduce yourself...." You show me yours and I'll show you mine... Edited November 7, 2012 by Cannonball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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