So Giant may dump their 29ers!

[MuddyMike]

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[GoLefty!!]

Chain stay length is not the only factor that determines wheelbase, the effective top tube length and head angle also influence the length of the wheelbase.

 

A long wheelbase gives a stable ride, but it compromises handling in tight turns, switchbacks and corners. Therefore bike designers need to find the best wheelbase for the best compromise between stability and handling.

 

right we agree on this.

 

Long chainstays means that designers are limited in their freedom in terms of top tube length and head angle selection.

 

Due to the bigger wheels most 29" bikes already have a long enough wheelbase, and in order to make the top tube longer or the head angle slacker, without lengthening the wheelbase, the chainstay length needs to be reduced, which is not possible on all suspension designs.

 

agreed, the CS length needs to be kept within limits to ensure the bike is not a bus, but that does not influence the packaging of the suspension components as much since the 29 provides the designer with a larger area behind the bb to work within. I don;t think Giant limited themselves to 27.5 in order to have better geometry for their vpp suspension bu I do think it hasa lot to do with realising that there is no benefit to bigger wheels on a full susser. On Large or XL bikes where maintaining the CoG of the rider within the wheel axles is less limiting there may be an opportunity. Giant's direction is showing that the whole big wheel argument is just another sales pitch.

 

So in short, the longer wheelbase is definitely not an attraction, in fact on many 29" bikes it is a drawback.

 

within reason. A longer wheelbase within limits is beneficial for stability and that makes the transition for someone coming from road bikes or having never ridden a bike before, into mountain biking, a much more pleasant experience. How many newbies have given up mtb simply because they can't handle the bikes? If a bike is too long it will look funny, especially a size XL on 26" wheels

[Eldron]

What I've learned from wheel size debates:

 

If you like 29er wheels they can roll over everything - including small buildings - God rides a 29.

If you don't like 29er wheels the it's all marketing hype to sell more bikes.

 

If you like 27.5 then it has ALL the advantages of 29 AND ALL the advantages of 26.

If you dislike 27.5 then it's a waste of time - too close to 26.

 

If you like 26 wheels the Nino and Jaro are slaves to their sponsors and have no choice in their equipment.

If you dislike 26 wheel then Nino and Jaro obviously choose their own equipment and 27.5/29 is better than both 26 and each other (depending on if you like swiss cheese or czech beer).

[Iwan Kemp]

What I've learned from wheel size debates:

 

If you like 29er wheels they can roll over everything - including small buildings - God rides a 29.

If you don't like 29er wheels the it's all marketing hype to sell more bikes. ...and Satan himself rides one

 

If you like 27.5 then it has ALL the advantages of 29 AND ALL the advantages of 26.

If you dislike 27.5 then it's a waste of time - too close to 26.

 

If you like 26 wheels the Nino and Jaro are slaves to their sponsors and have no choice in their equipment.

If you dislike 26 wheel then Nino and Jaro obviously choose their own equipment and 27.5/29 is better than both 26 and each other (depending on if you like swiss cheese or czech beer).

 

Nicely summed up. [Added one small edit]

[Ed-Zulu]

Nicely summed up. [Added one small edit]

...but lets be honest, 5.0', 60 year old tannies on 29'ers look bluddy ridiculous, isn't that the reason 26'ers are still alive

[MTBeer]

...but lets be honest, 5.0', 60 year old tannies on 29'ers look bluddy ridiculous, isn't that the reason 26'ers are still alive

no, their lack of skills is the reason 29ers were introduced.

[Brian Fantana]

 

Cut, cut...

 

I don;t think Giant limited themselves to 27.5 in order to have better geometry for their vpp suspension bu I do think it hasa lot ...

 

 

Giant does not use VPP.

 

Virtual Pivot Point is licensed to Santa Cruz, and Intense also uses it.

 

Giant uses Maestro, which is very similar to DW link suspension.

[Iwan Kemp]

Interesting, Giant is scrapping 29ers while Specialized is going all out 29er ?

 

Seems like I'll have to find a 26er to be in the "different" group now...

Not sure if it's been said, but they are not scrapping 29ers

Pinkbike: Can we expect to see 29 and 26-inch wheels eventually disappear in Giant's consumer-priced bikes in the near future?

Giant: 26-inch for sure, but 29-inch will be dependent on market feedback. That said, if the market progresses the way we believe it will, 29-inch will be phased out in approximately two years....again, totally dependent on market feedback.

 

Pinkbike: So, there are no 29er XC racing bikes for 2014?

Giant: Anthem X 29er, XtC Advanced 29er and XtC Composite 29er will still be offered.

 

Here's my take on where will what go or not: I can't see 29ers disappearing anytime soon. The range the models as mentioned above by Giant falls into makes sense for 29ers. Say what you want they do have advantages. When they talk about fazing out I can imagine that being the 29er Trance. As good as it is 1) people aren't buying 120mm bikes in shed loads like they do 100mm bikes and 2) the Trance doesn't sell nearly as good as the Anthem. In either wheel size. That's why I believe Giant has pulled the gun to up the Trance's travel and focus it on the Enduro scene. Not so different from what we call trail riding, but they see the opp to jump on the bandwagon. Nothing wrong or new there.

 

When it comes to 26 or 650...I'm not so sure. 650B is new and regardless of the pros or cons it will go the way of the world in "what comes latest should be best".

 

In the Pinkbike article I quoted above Giant very cleverly quotes and compares in the direction that suits their model line. Eldron has summed it up to the t. With 650B between the two sizes it affords them the opportunity to compare in both directions and as Eldron has mentioned before, they say best of both worlds, but can just as easily be seen as the worst of both too. NOT KNOCKING ANY WHEEL SIZE just saying we need to decided for ourselves and read through the marketing BS.

 

29er LT bikes? They have and will continue to come thick and fast. SALES will determine what manufacturers have in their line-up. Unfortunately for us their marketing drive sales and not what it truly best for the end user.

 

One last comment: before 29ers very few mtb'ers knew jack sheet about chainstay length and the effect thereof. I have spoken to a guy who was on about CS length of one bike vs the other and didn't even know that his current 26" was worse than both. Never bothered him before. But we read about it all over the show and all of a sudden it's the new watchword bike-buying is based on. No regard for head angle, trail, TT length or wheelbase.

 

Same guy kept me busy about how CS length influence agility of a bike and how 29ers are sluggish and slow on turn in. The very same guy who gets off his 26" bike to walk the switchbacks in Jonkers. Ain't no bike gonna fix that.

 

Buy what you like and can afford and then ride it. For most of us just about any bike is above our own skill level.

[Iwan Kemp]

Giant uses Maestro, which is very similar to DW link suspension.

...and being sued by Mr DW for that very reason.

[nigelhicks]

God rides a 29.

 

 

http://themozartcafe.homestead.com/files/laughing_wam_on_floor.gif

 

Thats awesome!!!!!!!!

Edited August 7, 2013 by nigelhicks

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

...and being sued by Mr DW for that very reason.

 

Yeah. Contract infringement, really. They're using his design. He wants to be paid accordingly. He was being paid, but not any more, afaik.

[GoLefty!!]

Giant does not use VPP.

 

Virtual Pivot Point is licensed to Santa Cruz, and Intense also uses it.

 

Giant uses Maestro, which is very similar to DW link suspension.

 

VPP is licensed trade mark, hence I used vpp (in lower case) because whichever you spin it they are all a virtual pivot point, including Specialized Horst link and Dave Weagles DW link.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Not sure if it's been said, but they are not scrapping 29ers

 

 

I said it numerous times in this thread. But people just don't seem to GET it. "Depends on Market Feedback" means that they MAY get rid fo the niners if it is proven that the market prefers 275 to the niner trend.

 

If the niner trend continues in a particular bike (XTC for example) then that bike stays niner. If the rest start to favour 275 then they will phase out niners inthat model. If it's pretty equal, well then both stay.

 

It's not rocket science. Just logic. And common frikkin sense. But people (MANY on here as well as PinkBike) seem not to have any of that in their heads. Like their parents picked them from the Factory Defect aisle in their local Kwik-e-Mart

 

FFS. All that has to happen is for them to READ the article. Not form an opinion based on the opening sentence.

 

/Rant off.

Edited August 7, 2013 by cpt armpies mayhem

[Eldron]

It's not rocket science. Just logic. And common frikkin sense. But people (MANY on here as well as PinkBike) seem not to have any of that in their heads. Like their parents picked them from the Factory Defect aisle in their local Kwik-e-Mart

 

FFS. All that has to happen is for them to READ the article. Not form an opinion based on the opening sentence.

 

Are you new here ;-)

 

We read nothing, we don't engage brain, we don't do logic - we do knee jerk baby. Live by the seat of our straight jackets man.

 

Logic is for losers, reading is for professors, thinking is for poets who's girlfriends have recently dumped them - we do none of them pansy assed stuffs - it's all react react REACT! Booyah!

[rock]

Giant does not use VPP.

 

Virtual Pivot Point is licensed to Santa Cruz, and Intense also uses it.

 

Giant uses Maestro, which is very similar to DW link suspension.

 

the VPP Godfather....

 

http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae352/slow86gn/Mountain%20Bikes/Sport-outland-VPP_zps0552ee43.jpg

[Iwan Kemp]

Im not sure how "true" this is ... but i got word last night from a very informed industry insider that Giant are doing this as they have not been able to get the geometries of their 29ers spot on ...

Not quite. They were the last big manufacturer to arrive on the scene (typical Giant approach) and waited long enough to get it spot on from the off. Same business approach with the new 650B offerings. Lots of R&D time spend by other guys while the 650B market was still shuffling around.

 

Giant does not gamble with dropping a sub standard bike that gets bad reviews. Doesn't matter how much time and money you spend to redesign and market - you don't recover from a bad first year. Anthem X29 and Trance X29 received glowing reviews from the very first model.