Nutrition and 4+ hrs rides

[Helpmytrap]

Thank you sir.

So it still a spike and a GU every hour is asking for trouble.

What I understand from that is not what you are saying.

I'm sure what he was implying was that when you experience that dip (inverse spike) in blood glucose, you then take a gu which lifts you up by increasing blood glucose but then once again you burn up that glucose and return to that blood glucose dip.

 

So my understanding is that the gu wasn't at fault, it simply increased your energy in a deficit situation. So a gu taken at an instant in time where blood glucose isn't depleted will help the body try and "restore" the lost glycogen stores. (Yes I know that you can't actually restore glycogen stores while exercising as you land up burning it off as fuel)

[V12man]

What I understand from that is not what you are saying.

I'm sure what he was implying was that when you experience that dip (inverse spike) in blood glucose, you then take a gu which lifts you up by increasing blood glucose but then once again you burn up that glucose and return to that blood glucose dip.

 

So my understanding is that the gu wasn't at fault, it simply increased your energy in a deficit situation. So a gu taken at an instant in time where blood glucose isn't depleted will help the body try and "restore" the lost glycogen stores. (Yes I know that you can't actually restore glycogen stores while exercising as you land up burning it off as fuel)

 

What you need to prevent is the low - this means you must take action BEFORE it is low - because there is a lag for carbohydrate to flow through the GI to the bloodstream and then the muscle where it is used.

 

To race at maximum effectiveness, you cannot afford to have low intramuscular glucose availability - EVER...

 

And it is well known that ingesting carbohydrate reduces the rate of glycogen depletion in the muscle - nevertheless, there is NOT enough glycogen in the muscle to fuel a hard 6 hour race - unless you are throttled back considerably - and that brings the element of PACING into play - something triathletes really need to understand well, as well as extended marathon type races/multi day events.

[shawnvan]

I think you definitely need to keep refuelling with carbs for anything over 1 hour to maintain energy levels, whether this is taken in via drinks or (semi) solid foods.

 

From my own experience of 4 hour+ rides (for Ironman training, so at the end of a 5-6 ride I still have to be hydrated and need to have enough energy and stored glycogen to start running a marthon - in training rides the intake is reduced slightly, but I still need to take on a lot to train my guts to handle it for race day), this is what works for me...

 

Training rides:

1x bottle carb drink (32GI, Epic Pro, GU Brew, etc.) every hour

1x GU gel every hour

Half bottle water every hour (take the Gel with water)

Maybe a sandwich or hot cross bun etc after 2 hours.

 

Race day (bike):

1 bottle carb drink every 45min - 1hour

1 GU gel every 45 minutes

Half bottle water every hour

Every 2nd hour - energy bar - I like the Powerbar peanut butter flavour ones.

 

So on a 5 1/2 Ironman ride I will take on roughly 6 bottles of carb drink, 2-3 bottles water, 6-7 gels and 2 Energy bars... I think this is a pretty standard amount of nutrition for an Ironman bike... Some guys need more, some less.

 

If I were just doing a normal 4 hour ride, I would probably just take 2 bottles carb drink, 1 bottle water and 3 gels to get me through.

 

The key is to find what works for you and what your stomach can handle by experimenting.

[Rydogg]

does the level of conditioning not play a big part in the choice of nutrition?

 

This makes all the difference. That and pacing your effort.

 

Another question: Take 2 similiarly trained athletes. Set them off on a 4 hour race. One takes an excess of carbs and the other too little. Which one will win?

[TopFuel]

This makes all the difference. That and pacing your effort.

 

Another question: Take 2 similiarly trained athletes. Set them off on a 4 hour race. One takes an excess of carbs and the other too little. Which one will win?

 

Difficult to say consider all of the other variables involved. But if all things were equal, they were going at the same pace, and fast enough to place that much demand on the body, the excess would win (should the other athlete run out of fuel). But almost impossible to call realistically, due to the other factors involved.

[Wyatt Earp]

What I understand from that is not what you are saying.

I'm sure what he was implying was that when you experience that dip (inverse spike) in blood glucose, you then take a gu which lifts you up by increasing blood glucose but then once again you burn up that glucose and return to that blood glucose dip.

 

So my understanding is that the gu wasn't at fault, it simply increased your energy in a deficit situation. So a gu taken at an instant in time where blood glucose isn't depleted will help the body try and "restore" the lost glycogen stores. (Yes I know that you can't actually restore glycogen stores while exercising as you land up burning it off as fuel)

 

Still a spike as the GU sucker was stupid enough to go in to a low.

[Wyatt Earp]

Water, protein bar and nougat and I am as happy as a pig in chocolate sauce.

[V12man]

This makes all the difference. That and pacing your effort.

 

Another question: Take 2 similiarly trained athletes. Set them off on a 4 hour race. One takes an excess of carbs and the other too little. Which one will win?

 

The one with more genetic talent...

 

Given equivalent training, genetics normally takes it.

[V12man]

I think you definitely need to keep refuelling with carbs for anything over 1 hour to maintain energy levels, whether this is taken in via drinks or (semi) solid foods.

 

From my own experience of 4 hour+ rides (for Ironman training, so at the end of a 5-6 ride I still have to be hydrated and need to have enough energy and stored glycogen to start running a marthon - in training rides the intake is reduced slightly, but I still need to take on a lot to train my guts to handle it for race day), this is what works for me...

 

Training rides:

1x bottle carb drink (32GI, Epic Pro, GU Brew, etc.) every hour

1x GU gel every hour

Half bottle water every hour (take the Gel with water)

Maybe a sandwich or hot cross bun etc after 2 hours.

 

Race day (bike):

1 bottle carb drink every 45min - 1hour

1 GU gel every 45 minutes

Half bottle water every hour

Every 2nd hour - energy bar - I like the Powerbar peanut butter flavour ones.

 

So on a 5 1/2 Ironman ride I will take on roughly 6 bottles of carb drink, 2-3 bottles water, 6-7 gels and 2 Energy bars... I think this is a pretty standard amount of nutrition for an Ironman bike... Some guys need more, some less.

 

If I were just doing a normal 4 hour ride, I would probably just take 2 bottles carb drink, 1 bottle water and 3 gels to get me through.

 

The key is to find what works for you and what your stomach can handle by experimenting.

 

I suspect you may well be over hydrating - depending on conditions - this is easy to test - take a scale with you and take you weight just before and immediately after the event - if you are over your start weight at the end, then you are overhydrating - realistically most normal weight people can afford to lose around 2 - 3 kg during an event with no performance degradation - try to avoid losing more than 5% of bodyweight though.

 

Worth experimenting a little on this - especially if you are a tri-athlete - pretty easy to do.

[davetapson]

Gu's are not my cup of tea but here's a guy who won a 100mile (160km) foot race on a gu per 45 mins...

 

http://www.irunfar.com/2013/09/jason-schlarb-2013-run-rabbit-run-100-champion-interview.html

[jcza]

Gu's are not my cup of tea but here's a guy who won a 100mile (160km) foot race on a gu per 45 mins...

 

http://www.irunfar.c...-interview.html

 

From the article...

 

It’s two or three things. First one is not racing in August and taking another race out early in the summer to make sure I’m fresh and feeling good. Another one is a grain-free diet and making the body a fat-burning system. I think I had 1,500 calories for 17 hours.

[deonkretch]

Ok, someone needs to send this thread to Doc Jeroen Swart... He's going to really enjoy some of the 'web science' and probably have a fit laughing at some of the comments, suggestions and 'facts'. It would be great to get a "idiot-proofed" reply in layman's terms - bullet form, something that guys that draw pictures for a living (me) can understand!

 

Perhaps even ask him to do an online Webinar for us Hubbers on what is fact, fiction and sci-fi comedy when it comes to nutrition!

[jcza]

Ok, someone needs to send this thread to Doc Jeroen Swart... He's going to really enjoy some of the 'web science' and probably have a fit laughing at some of the comments, suggestions and 'facts'. It would be great to get a "idiot-proofed" reply in layman's terms - bullet form, something that guys that draw pictures for a living (me) can understand!

 

Perhaps even ask him to do an online Webinar for us Hubbers on what is fact, fiction and sci-fi comedy when it comes to nutrition!

 

PM him the link, he is active on here from time to time. Look forward to his response as a lot of what is quoted is from publications by world renowed coaches and trainers.

[Wyatt Earp]

The one with more genetic talent...

 

Given equivalent training, genetics normally takes it.

 

Another thing the regular hardcore average weekend racing attention whores often overlook.

[Wyatt Earp]

Gu's are not my cup of tea but here's a guy who won a 100mile (160km) foot race on a gu per 45 mins...

 

http://www.irunfar.c...-interview.html

 

Running nutrition and cycling nutrition are just not the same.

[V12man]

Running nutrition and cycling nutrition are just not the same.

 

And the difference is?

 

Aside from the fact that running shorts are easier to get off in a hurry..

 

Nutrition is nutrition - the only real difference between cycling and running is the variability of effort for cycling compared to running - and really the on/off nature of competitive cycling is much more a feature of elite cyclists than the average racer.

 

The average bike racer in the mid pack pretty much sets a pace they think they can maintain and holds that effort for the whole event except when they are freewheeling downhill (similar to runners) - but for elite racers, their effort levels spike up and down considerably, so there are often periods where they are at near rest, and there are times when they are operating right on their maximum effort levels.

 

Thus it is most important for an elite racer to ensure that they can properly fuel the maximum effort sets - which has a high component of anaerobic effort (the glucose/glycogen muncher) - what most people do not understand well enough is the effect of pacing (i.e. relative effort compared to maximum effort) on glucose usage - the harder you are working, the more glucose is used as a fuel source - work too hard for too long, and you run out of glucose stores - unless you are supplementing them during the effort.

 

And for an average racer it is important that they can fuel the total workload (bearing in mind that they are probably on average working at a higher level of effort relative to their capability than an elite cyclist) which because they are working relatively hard, means they need glucose to fuel the hard effort.

 

Fortunately, one can relatively easily calculate the energy and fluid requirements for most events, and plan your nutrition accordingly - and it is always easier to err on the side of caution - a little too much is better than just not enough - with the caution that too little as well as too much have disastrous side effects - too little and you can't perform, and if you really overload it, your GI will make you stop/slow down/embarrass you.

 

It's a fine line...