Steel back in the peleton...

[GoLefty!!]

Thats really nice and I like Cotic bikes. Been a fan of theirs for nearly 10 years

[Kev777]

There are some awesome steel bikes out there.....they just cost a fortune

Independent Fabrication

BAUM

Vanilla Bikes.

 

If Scott or Cannondale put a Pro team on a steel bike it would be the next big thing.

At least the chain stays might last on the scotties then if it is steel...

[GoLefty!!]

If Specialized builds a steel bike they will patent it because they thought of it first

[mazambaan]

Interesting to see that KTM in their offroad motorcycles follow the broad ideas set out by Cy Turner with a "steel" CroMo anyway frame and aluminium swing arm. The majority however (Japanese manufacturers) seem to have have aluminium frames with sections specifically formed by expensive processes to meet the stress demands.

[Hairy]

Now..... can steel be hydro-formed in the same way that aluminiun tubes are and if so could this actually benefit the material in the way the ride feels or to get the frame stiffer or more responsive in certain areas?

[Eldron]

Now..... can steel be hydro-formed in the same way that aluminiun tubes are and if so could this actually benefit the material in the way the ride feels or to get the frame stiffer or more responsive in certain areas?

 

It can but not to the degree that alu can by hydroformed. Steel has thinner sidewalls and is far less ductile than alu so far less manipulation is possible.

 

Hydroforming absolutely benefits tubes. Round tubes have the same properties in all directions - great for articles that have to be strong in all directions but bikes need variable properties in different directions - hydroforming allows this (within limits). Awesome technology for both alu and steel tubes.

[GoLefty!!]

Steel requires a higher pressure hydroforming, but is better formed through stamping or HERF (high energy rate forming) of sheeet material that is then welded at the seem. This forms a pretty light and very strong and stiff structure. This is the type of structure VW uses in its new MQB platform for the Golf/Jetta/AudiA3/Q3/Skoda Octavia/Seat Leon vehicles.

 

Problem fo rbicycle manufacture is that it requires volume to make it viable which is problematic when steel is pitched as a niche product for the bicycle market.

There is nothing stopping any bicycle manufacturer from developing a moncoque bicycle frame made from formed sheet sections welded together down the centre.

The appetitite is likely slim since its very difficult to market it as a high performance article when the market is so "educated" to the merits of carbon fibre.

Cyclng sold its soul to the marketer when the Yanks got in on the game. We still don't have a better product despite all the marketing, we just have lighter and stiffer. Only one of those properties is really marginally useful to 95% of cyclists and the other is not as critical as we would like to believe.

[Hairy]

Steel requires a higher pressure hydroforming, but is better formed through stamping or HERF (high energy rate forming) of sheeet material that is then welded at the seem. This forms a pretty light and very strong and stiff structure. This is the type of structure VW uses in its new MQB platform for the Golf/Jetta/AudiA3/Q3/Skoda Octavia/Seat Leon vehicles.

 

Problem fo rbicycle manufacture is that it requires volume to make it viable which is problematic when steel is pitched as a niche product for the bicycle market.

There is nothing stopping any bicycle manufacturer from developing a moncoque bicycle frame made from formed sheet sections welded together down the centre.

The appetitite is likely slim since its very difficult to market it as a high performance article when the market is so "educated" to the merits of carbon fibre.

Cyclng sold its soul to the marketer when the Yanks got in on the game. We still don't have a better product despite all the marketing, we just have lighter and stiffer. Only one of those properties is really marginally useful to 95% of cyclists and the other is not as critical as we would like to believe.

 

That gets me excited

 

RE Marketing ... surely they can add a tiny molecule and rename it something really fancy with claims that it is the best material out there and will even help with impotency and restore hair growth .... it must work I tell you ... then we can get some awesome steel rides!

[GoLefty!!]

problem is 5% of cyclists may understand that.

Carbon Fibre is so entrenched as a teh ultimate material that its almost impossible to knock it off the pedestal as the most suitable material for a bicycle.

People have built frames in bamboo/resin composite and proved them to be incredibly strong but no traction from the market.

 

When steel will regain its lustre is when fibre steel composite becomes a main stream product and not just a metallurgists wet dream.

 

Even today, the carbon fibre frame is nowhere near the potential of the material but we pay as if it is. There much more marketing length to carbon fibre in our bike frames than there is too steel or other materials.

 

 

Just look at 29'ers; the triumph of marketing over common sense

Edited October 4, 2013 by GoLefty!!

[Christie]

problem is 5% of cyclists may understand that.

Carbon Fibre is so entrenched as a teh ultimate material that its almost impossible to knock it off the pedestal as the most suitable material for a bicycle.

People have built frames in bamboo/resin composite and proved them to be incredibly strong but no traction from the market.

 

When steel will regain its lustre is when fibre steel composite becomes a main stream product and not just a metallurgists wet dream.

 

Even today, the carbon fibre frame is nowhere near the potential of the material but we pay as if it is. There much more marketing length to carbon fibre in our bike frames than there is too steel or other materials.

 

 

Just look at 29'ers; the triumph of marketing over common sense

 

Agree, well said. Carbon is a fantastic material, but the market is at a point where folks are willing to spend R50k on a Dogma that weighs more than a metal frame. Metal bikes would also work better for 90% of riders, yet most end up on a carbon frame.

[Hairy]

to add to golefty .... i was keen on a bamboo frame a few years ago but was just too flipping expensive

[greatwhite]

Agree, well said. Carbon is a fantastic material, but the market is at a point where folks are willing to spend R50k on a Dogma that weighs more than a metal frame. Metal bikes would also work better for 90% of riders, yet most end up on a carbon frame.

 

Just saw this post and how it evolved, so I'll resurrect it (I only get on the hub every few months these days :-( , so sorry for the 'late' reply)

 

I think the material is irrelevant with regard to price, If the marketing people could sell you frame made from dog poo for R50k, they would, as long as it was the lightest and made it through the warranty period - I'm trying to divorce the marketing from the numbers here

 

I think a lot of bike frames are made with fairly basic carbon fibre materials, which nowhere near use the full potential of the material - modern nanotubes have been found to have a young modulus of approx. 4.5 times that of steel (most steel alloys are around 200GPa), so you get the stiffness and with a UTS as high 126GPa (about 60x that of the best steel at about 2GPa), its fairly easy to get a mass advantage - I would give the more relevant proof strength which in the case of steel I guess is about 1.7-1.5Gpa but the manufacturers in both cases seem to think this rather important variable is irrelevant. The other thing missing here is fatigue characteristics. Suffice to say, though, the relatively mature steel technology losses hands down to the relatively recent CNT. Even if a steel or aluminium bike is as good now, I won't keep up as the tech filters down in coming years.

 

Stiffness, pliance, comfort - those are more subjective things. Again they can be engineered, but steel is the worst in this regard, due to forming constraints. People make noises about the steel frame being lively blah blah. They probably are for many - I prefer the term 'whippy', because they lack lateral stiffness (my experience) and as for longevity, while I have the view that bike parts these days are engineered to almost sacrificial components especially if you are large lad like me, I've not had a carbon or aluminium frame fail on me, but I have had 5 steel frames and 1 titanium frame give up (I do, think the Ti frame gave up due to a manufacturing defect however). The steel frames were Reynolds 531, 531P (twice), 708 and Columbus SLX for what it is worth.

 

That brings me to Ti, why not add that to this discussion - also gives 'lively' ride?

 

Lastly @ 'Chro Mo': Please don't take this as an attack, but I had to chuckle - Your avatar Reynolds 531 is a manganese moly steel, not a chrome moly steel - try 501 or, I think Columbus SL is a Chro Mo.

[Christie]

I think the ride feel of steel has a lot to do with a lack of stiffness - to make a frame a reasonable weight, it will flex a lot. Steel is more elastic than aluminium, so the material can handle more elastic deformation. Steel also has very little structural damping, which means the frame will flex back without much loss of energy, giving it a "springy" ride feel.

 

Alu alloys is less ductile, so would give a more direct feel. I would guess the frames tend to be a bit stiffer relative to steel to keep stress in allowable levels, and gives a more direct and "hard" ride feel.

 

I suspect Ti sit in between those two, a bit less springy than steel, a bit less harsh than alu.

 

 

[MTB0007]

Mmmm

I'm an older tjop ... Closing in on 50..

Been cycling since I can remember ...

Never pro or super fast but

Gone from a Schwinn tricycle ... To a Schwinn chopper

Through redline chrome moly BMX ... Steel 12 speed Reynolds racer ...

Eventually ALU downhill Giant then more ALU MTB than I can remember

And a full carbon road bike ....

But after 40 years and way too may broken bones and now titanium inserts in some places ...

I still prefer the feel , the look ,the acceleration a decent hand welded chrome moly

Gives ...

steel is real.... In my humble opinion all the new stuff is just for marketing and market share ...

If you ride a real steel beauty ... You will feel why steel is real...

 

My 2c

[greatwhite]

.....

But after 40 years and way too may broken bones and now titanium inserts in some places ...

I still prefer the feel , the look ,the acceleration a decent hand welded chrome moly

Gives ...

steel is real.... In my humble opinion all the new stuff is just for marketing and market share ...

If you ride a real steel beauty ... You will feel why steel is real...

 

My 2c

 

I guess everything is relative. If you are looking for a comfortable bike for hours in the saddle, steel probably has its place - Ti too for that matter. I know how you feel about the lively feel (note many steel frames in previous post). This is a subjective thing though. I think you will find however, while they don't have the 'real' steel feel, the carbon and ali frames will actually give more acceleration even though you might perceive them otherwise.

 

The other effect that I perceive in a similar way to this is the 'rubber band' effect of turbo cars that make them feel faster than similar powered normally aspirated cars. In this case you stamp on the frame and like an elastic band it springs back at you - it feels great, but what you have actually done is expended energy deflecting the frame, regained most on the springs back but wasted a little in the process.

 

Despite the OP stating steel is back in the peleton, look up the Condor bike in question - frame weight 1800g for a 52cm frame. The other popular top end steel 953 e.g. Madison Genesis Volare, can get you down to 1600g for a similar size frame. At the top end of the sport, hauling an extra half kilo plus up hill isn't going to happen when a big race victory is on the cards. The condor in question weighs 7.2kg with everything else around the frame in...... you got it - carbon firbre! Incl super light climbing wheels it is still nearly half a kilo over the UCI weigh limit

[greatwhite]

Just a thought: I think the marketing people have got most fooled - steel is real is a slogan developed to try and sell steel frames - at first, because they were loosing hands down to the new materials (ali, carbon) and now because they have realised there are plenty of people out there that will buy a steel bike in addition to their carbon, ali, Ti steeds, simply because it is cool and they have spare cash. Look at the whole fixie/retro thing that has popped up in recent years - makes little sense to me, but thousands are doing it - why not throw steel in there too?