First Tokai MTB AGM

[(Deon)]

I think this is going too far. I would like to to start justifying your comments with fact.

[DJR]

Re. volunteer build days:

 

I call your bluff on this one. Here is a picture taken in September at a build day when the whole of Mamba was cleared and cut by the volunteers, You go and count the heads yourself. Check the Tokai Build thread and see some more, half blind soul!

 

Some disgusting nonsense you posted, it stinks! You also fail to mention that no downhiller have showed up for any builds for at least 6 months, possibly the whole of 2013. Still the build days were generally bigger than when everyone pitched in.

 

(Now, for the first time on this thread, I am the moer in!)

[Capricorn]

I think this is going too far. I would like to to start justifying your comments with fact.

 

well, that 'petite nature' is coming through nicely, especially when its clear fact plays no part in building a good argument, and instead, cheap shots and playing the person for no good reason other than thats all they are capable of doing anyway. Waste of popcorn though: can't even insult properly. Such class.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Capricorn

[Guest OldFlow]

Re. volunteer build days:

 

I call your bluff on this one. Here is a picture taken in September at a build day when the whole of Mamba was cleared and cut by the volunteers, You go and count the heads yourself. Check the Tokai Build thread and see some more, half blind soul!

 

Some disgusting nonsense you posted, it stinks! You also fail to mention that no downhiller have showed up for any builds for at least 6 months, possibly the whole of 2013. Still the build days were generally bigger than when everyone pitched in.

 

(Now, for the first time on this thread, I am the moer in!)

 

Nice pic DJR...

 

Show us the ones from all the other ones?

[Guest OldFlow]

well, that 'petite nature' is coming through nicely, especially when its clear fact plays no part in building a good argument, and instead, cheap shots and playing the person for no good reason other than thats all they are capable of doing anyway. Waste of popcorn though: can't even insult properly. Such class.

 

Says Capricorn.... whilst taking a cheap shot and playing the person for no good reason other than that's all he seems capable of doing ;-)

 

Various people have asked the "naysayers" for facts but have only got emotion in reply. we have provided clear answers. Why is it that you lot cannot provide objective answers instead of all that venom?

[Guest OldFlow]

 

How many years has there not been an AGM? Fact, there has never been an AGM. Questions: Have the current incumbents been managing the process properly from the money, to trail design to building to public participation? We don't know.The AGM and process after that will tell us. In 2012 the Forum was formed through a public meeting. In 2013 a follow up public meeting was held. Both times at Crysalis and open to anybody and well publicised and attended. Frank and open discussions took place. (Correct me on the details if needed)

 

 

The statement was quite specific. There has been no AGM to date...... Your reply has no bearing in that regard.

Edited February 2, 2014 by OldFlow

[Capricorn]

Says Capricorn.... whilst taking a cheap shot and playing the person for no good reason other than that's all he seems capable of doing ;-)

 

Various people have asked the "naysayers" for facts but have only got emotion in reply. we have provided clear answers. Why is it that you lot cannot provide objective answers instead of all that venom?

 

I do, because all Vince tried to do was pour scorn by drumming up what was really a failed attempt at insult. You seem to be ok with that, so its no surprise you copied my statement as another empty response.

 

But try to reply to this: what do you mean by naysayers? I think i know who you are referring to, but i dont understand the reference and its context.

 

oh and Vince: i'm on this forum to buy and sell, shoot the breeze with fellow cyclists, learn a lot, and some times share my experiences that seem to be helpful to others. Seems thehub is full of obsessed-with-this-forum types.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Capricorn

[Guest OldFlow]

I do, because all Vince tried to do was pour scorn by drumming up what was really a failed attempt at insult. You seem to be ok with that, so its no surprise you copied my statement as another empty response.

 

But try to reply to this: what do you mean by naysayers? I think i know who you are referring to, but i dont understand the reference and its context.

 

The naysayers:

• marko35s
  
• Capricorn
  
• DJR
  
• Pappa Bear
  
• Pain or Shine
  
• Myles M
  

The context? Remove yourself emotionally from the subject at hand for 20 minutes and read through the entire thread objectively and without blind prejudice and it should become clearer...

[Guest OldFlow]

I think this is going too far. I would like to to start justifying your comments with fact.

 

With no context or quote provided, we have no idea who this is addressing...

[DJR]

...........................I have not discredited all the work you have "performed in the last 3 years". I acknowledged that you have played a role in terms of improving relationships with SANParks. If you cannot concede that your trail building skills are inadequate to produce the high standard of trail such as what we see a proliferation of elsewhere, then that too is a clear indication that a new approach is urgently needed..........................

 

OK, let's get down to specifics again:

 

1. The DOWNHILL TRACK from top to bottom was NOT BUILT BY DEON. It was built by the downhillers themselves over MANY YEARS. Are you unhappy with this and do you lay the blame for this on Deon?

2. FAIRY GARDEN and the ROOTS trails WERE NOT BUILT BY DEON. Are you happy or unhappy about these? Who do you blame for that?

3. VASBYT was NOT BUILT BY DEON..........same questions as above

4. BLUEGUMS WAS BUILT BY DEON to divert people riding up the downhill track. Any issues with that?

5. COBRA WASNOT BUILT BY DEON......same as......

6, MAMBA and BOOMSLANG WERE BUILT BY DEON after the logging totally destroyed the previous trails, leaving the slope looking like a war zone. We are talking about building starting after the last BIG winter storms in late September and finishing before the dry of summer in November, 3 months. All done himself, with 4 helpers that he raised the money for and 1 volunteer build day per month. No machinery allowed on the mountain. No materials from outside. All done with spade and wheelbarrow and sweat. Tokai is sandy soil and the plan calls for the lining of the length of the snake trails with clay. Yes, again wheelbarrowed in load by load. Do you have any idea of how hard a job that is? Now you are complaining that he builds crap, where there would have been nothing, at least we have the skeleton of a good line that can be completed. That same line that you call crap has already withstood the WORST FLOODING the mountain has had in decades. Just look at the landslides all over, but none of the new line washed away. If you don't like how it rides, that might be a different issue, for all you know it has been designed with a different type of rider in mind? The majority of the riders that ride Tokai perhaps?

[DJR]

The naysayers:

• marko35s
  
• Capricorn
  
• DJR
  
• Pappa Bear
  
• Pain or Shine
  
• Myles M
  

The context? Remove yourself emotionally from the subject at hand for 20 minutes and read through the entire thread objectively and without blind prejudice and it should become clearer...

 

I've been here from the first word and I've read every single one and some between the lines too

 

I wouldn't call myself a naysayer, and neither should you, because I do support your cause for better more trail! And I will vote for a candidate that you put forward if I consider him worthy.

 

I just oppose doing it in an acrimonious way and I don't like your way of treating others. For a cause so noble, one should keep the battle pure too.

[Guest OldFlow]

OK, let's get down to specifics again:

 

1. The DOWNHILL TRACK from top to bottom was NOT BUILT BY DEON. It was built by the downhillers themselves over MANY YEARS. Are you unhappy with this and do you lay the blame for this on Deon?

2. FAIRY GARDEN and the ROOTS trails WERE NOT BUILT BY DEON. Are you happy or unhappy about these? Who do you blame for that?

3. VASBYT was NOT BUILT BY DEON..........same questions as above

4. BLUEGUMS WAS BUILT BY DEON to divert people riding up the downhill track. Any issues with that?

5. COBRA WASNOT BUILT BY DEON......same as......

6, MAMBA and BOOMSLANG WERE BUILT BY DEON after the logging totally destroyed the previous trails, leaving the slope looking like a war zone. We are talking about building starting after the last BIG winter storms in late September and finishing before the dry of summer in November, 3 months. All done himself, with 4 helpers that he raised the money for and 1 volunteer build day per month. No machinery allowed on the mountain. No materials from outside. All done with spade and wheelbarrow and sweat. Tokai is sandy soil and the plan calls for the lining of the length of the snake trails with clay. Yes, again wheelbarrowed in load by load. Do you have any idea of how hard a job that is? Now you are complaining that he builds crap, where there would have been nothing, at least we have the skeleton of a good line that can be completed. That same line that you call crap has already withstood the WORST FLOODING the mountain has had in decades. Just look at the landslides all over, but none of the new line washed away. If you don't like how it rides, that might be a different issue, for all you know it has been designed with a different type of rider in mind? The majority of the riders that ride Tokai perhaps?

 

Hmmm... quite a list to go through. I'm heading to bed shortly but I promise I'll give you a decent breakdown on all those. Possibly only tomorrow night.

 

In the meantime I have a question I would like you to answer. Please define what you consider "the majority of the riders that ride Tokai". I have thought long and hard about that but I witness such a diversity of riders going through Tokai on any given day, I certainly couldn't simply lump them into one category who all want exactly the same experience....

 

P.S. Your closing comments regarding the trail building frustrations and challenges provide many of the reasons why we would prefer to leave the building to the professionals, and the maintenance to the volunteers. The pros are well versed in dealing with these issues.

Edited February 2, 2014 by OldFlow

[Guest OldFlow]

I've been here from the first word and I've read every single one and some between the lines too

 

I wouldn't call myself a naysayer, and neither should you, because I do support your cause for better more trail! And I will vote for a candidate that you put forward if I consider him worthy.

 

I just oppose doing it in an acrimonious way and I don't like your way of treating others. For a cause so noble, one should keep the battle pure too.

 

You see? We do have a lot of good, common ground to work off. I think there is just too much reading between the lines going on. I think I can confidently speak for Vince, Duane, Richard and myself in saying that one character trait we have in common is that we are not afraid to speak our minds, so there is no hidden or encrypted meaning in anything we say.

[Capricorn]

The naysayers:

• marko35s
  
• Capricorn
  
• DJR
  
• Pappa Bear
  
• Pain or Shine
  
• Myles M
  

The context? Remove yourself emotionally from the subject at hand for 20 minutes and read through the entire thread objectively and without blind prejudice and it should become clearer...

 

i was about to reply,but DJR summed it up better than i would have:

I just oppose doing it in an acrimonious way and I don't like your way of treating others. For a cause so noble, one should keep the battle pure too

 

It's got nothing to do with blind whatever. Stop throwing words around just to be negative. Makes your posts highly ironic, especially when you beseech others to stop and read.

[DJR]

Last for today, promise:

 

The way I see it, 80% of the riders ride up the jeep track and 80% of those ride carefully down the single track trying mainly not to crash. They have limited skill and they ride mainly for exercise and to get out there and to prepare for the occasional Sunday race. They are the ordinary majority, sad as it may be.

 

The other 20% ride up the single track and bomb down having fun. These you would probably call the Stage racing types, Trail and All Mountain guys. (I ride lots of other things too, but this is probably where I fit in)

 

Somewhere in that last 20% (perhaps 10 % of the 20%) is a small minority that push their bikes up the mountain and then BOMB down with insane skill. Call them the downhillers and the Enduro guys.

 

Lets say a 1000 bikes go up the mountain on a Sunday like today, 800 will be the first group, 180 will be from the 2nd group and 20 will be from the last group. One can do a head count but I think the numbers will be close to my thumbsuck.

 

Keeping this in mind, Tokai has to accommodate everyone and its trails must accommodate everyone.

[(Deon)]

Guys, stop. It is 11pm on Sunday night. If this really was a fair process we would be supplied the facts we have requested and not had an attack on personalities.

 

This is an effort to smear the process that has run to date. I conceded Johno, I am out. I will as of tomorrow inform all the people currently involved in Tokai's fundraising, sponsorships, support and negotiations that I will no longer be their point of contact and leave it up to them to decide their commitement.

 

Herewith notes from a meeting that was minuted by Duane (Omega Man) showing very clearly that the group claiming misrepresentation was included from day one. This is dated the 27th July. Please also note the presentation of Snake trail designs. You will also see the communication promised of the reconstruction of the snake trails.. if there was a problem, why was nothing said?

 

Johno, do you know this? I do not want anyone to be pulled through this even though you seem to have no shame, I have said it before, but I cannot tolerate your assignation of my character on an open forum. Do you know what you are even doing? Do you have all the facts from the people you claim have the best interest in Tokai??!! There is more, 3 years worth!

 

 

 

On 27 Jul 2013, at 12:01, Duane Bosch wrote:

 

 

Hey guys.

 

Just Some notes from our meeting the other night. I’m not a secretary but it’s pointless to have a meeting and not make notes or come out without an action plan and some deliverables.

 

 

Present. Duane, Vince, Deon.

Absent. Gary Barnard, Myles Mayhew.

 

Notes from the meeting

·

Deon presented plans for the new snake trails to be rebuilt. This includes all 5 levels from Cobra down.

·

Deon to walk the Snake trails with Sandra on Monday 29/07/2013 or Tuesday 30/07/2013 for final approval.

·

Deon said he has 200m of work to do on Fairy Garden including rebuilding the bridge so he anticipates breaking ground on Friday 2 August on the new Snake trails.

·

Deon will make the necessary announcements around the rebuilding of the Snake Trails on social media

...

·

Vince and Duane to walk a potential interim solution including existing fire breaks on Saturday 3 August before or during the volunteer build day.

...

·

As soon as approval received this would be communicated to Vince & Duane

·

Duane and Vince to be made members of Tokai MTB to ensure transparency and accountability.

 

Subsequent to this an email was sent to Myles, Gary Barnard, Vince and I think even Duane to inform them of the plans, a copy of the constitution and an estimate of timeframe. Your whole campaign as you have put it rests on two things, 1. my crap trails which your leaders approved. 2. My lack of transparency which is being claimed by Vince, Richard and Duane.

 

I do not have a problem with any of these people, but if they are prepared to rope others in and withhold convenient bits of vital information, which is clear you have no knowledge of by your vehemence and determination to make me out to be the despot, the I pity the pawns who defend their actions.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Pain or shine