'Dale Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 I always hope that humility can also be an unintended, but most desirable, outcome of a ban. Hmmmm
goya-goya Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 Seriously... eeeeish!... I am dissapointed at how you guys only see that "mob justice" is the answer. Rules are rules... and term served is just that... if you dont like it, help make the change where it counts. Thats the thing about being civilised: you create systems that are presumed "fair" until they are not and then you change them if they are no longer serving the purpose intended. If someone has served their term, they are 100% legit to return. in fact I do not see how a UCI event could decline an entry after someone has served their term. I guess they could go to the CAS and fight? I guess private races can do what they want [sic] And as for Lance... he is still my hero. Get involved. help eradicate this rot. give the true athletes a fair fight.
mtbee Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 Looks like more local race organisers joining together to impose life time bans on drug offenders. Cannot blame organisers who have their events results screwed up 6 months to a year after they have paid out good money to "winners".
Guest notmyname Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 Seriously... eeeeish!... I am dissapointed at how you guys only see that "mob justice" is the answer. Rules are rules... and term served is just that... if you dont like it, help make the change where it counts. Thats the thing about being civilised: you create systems that are presumed "fair" until they are not and then you change them if they are no longer serving the purpose intended. If someone has served their term, they are 100% legit to return. in fact I do not see how a UCI event could decline an entry after someone has served their term. I guess they could go to the CAS and fight? I guess private races can do what they want [sic] And as for Lance... he is still my hero. Get involved. help eradicate this rot. give the true athletes a fair fight.Lance is banned for life. You can't just dope a little bit bud. Doping is doping. It's dishonest regardless of how much or who you are. You either cheating, or you abiding by the rules.
Guest notmyname Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 They have paid out good money to "winners".While the athletes that slogged it out the good old law abiding way suffer.
Eldron Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 I'm all for reformed dopers doing whatever they want....outside of the sport. Inside the sport we should all be making their lives as uncomfortable as possible. Go be an insurance salesman, baker or candlestick maker just not a cyclist.
goya-goya Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 Nothing is one dimensional dude. Lance is my hero because I started cycling because of him. and on the point of being banned for life... I don't see how you guys are fighting for justice about other guys who did the same thing that have not been caught or have had little bans... is it OK that they start cycling after their ban? Lance was made an example of. easy pickings. Mob justice at it's most ugly ... as a cycling community we know more, but just watched. @eldron... you do know that this is just a game... sport I mean... have you involved yourself in helping SIADS root out the rot. Why not bring your obvious - not being facetious - knowledge in the community to good use? You could not be suggesting that if someone has done something wrong that we should not give them a chance to be a better person? Please guys... get involved with SAIDS... and if they are not doing their job lets petition the sports minister. we need to get in front of this.
Thor Buttox Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 Nothing is one dimensional dude. Lance is my hero because I started cycling because of him. and on the point of being banned for life... I don't see how you guys are fighting for justice about other guys who did the same thing that have not been caught or have had little bans... is it OK that they start cycling after their ban? Lance was made an example of. easy pickings. Mob justice at it's most ugly ... as a cycling community we know more, but just watched. @eldron... you do know that this is just a game... sport I mean... have you involved yourself in helping SIADS root out the rot. Why not bring your obvious - not being facetious - knowledge in the community to good use? You could not be suggesting that if someone has done something wrong that we should not give them a chance to be a better person? Please guys... get involved with SAIDS... and if they are not doing their job lets petition the sports minister. we need to get in front of this.Actually I think you are partly correct. Rules is rules. Unfortunately, there is a difference between legal liability and ethical liability. One has the consequence of rectifying a wrong and requires no consideration by people like us and the other is perfectly open to interpretation and judgment by the common man. I'll give an example: Lance (and Brandon) were caught. As professional athletes they earned large amounts of cash (especially in LA's example) illegally. None of that has been voluntarily returned. And in both cases no remorse has been shown that it occurred. There has been no rectification of that unjust situation - because the rules you apply simply apply to the racing. If I hacked into either their bank accounts and transferred all their winnings to the second place person, I would be guilty of a legal crime, but ethically the situation would be resolved. The lack of remorse and any attempt at redemption in my book makes it perfectly fine to continue to disregard their achievements. And until the CONSEQUENCES of doping (ie theft/fraud) are properly policed it is to a large degree only an ethical set of rules, not a legal one. SAIDS will not solve the consequence issue. And LA was my hero too, and why I started watching the Tour and riding.
Guest notmyname Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 Great exercise... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQ9iwXwEeAI'm poorer having watched that tumbles.
Tumbleweed Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 I'm poorer having watched that tumbles. You would, however, be more regular... Dr John Harvey Kellogg is most misunderstood.
Sharkie 2 Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 Plain and easy...Lance always maintained that he did the right thing because everyone else was also using so he just went with what was required to win. So if everyone jumps in the fire will he also jump in? The downfall of all dopers caught are the fact that they are too competitive, they can't accept just one win or in fact someone else being "better" than them...always the mentlity of just one more sort of like a drug addiction funnily The moment you decide to cheat you have made the decision to take the risk no matter what the consequences are. You care about one thing and that is winning! That is not wrong at all but you have made another concious decision and that is it will be winning at all cost. There is no difference in doing something that is wrong or illegal! The fact that the person can stand on the podium knowing he won doping says all about the person. Unfortunately the minute a sport is professional and money is involved love of the sport goes out the window I say ban the rider for life from the professional side of the sport, if you could not be competitive from the onsent you definitely would not have changed fisiologically during your ban. You took the gamble, it is basically the same as putting everything you have worked for on either red or black at the roulette table, 50/50 chance.
goya-goya Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 @Thor... i am with you... ethical and legal separation is inevitable and the source of the problem... expecting a moral goverance by a person who morally is questionable - I say this as an opionin - will NEVER work! As you mention about doing something that is illegal to "right a wrong"... this is obviously not gonna work. You suggest a better solution than actually working within the frame-work that is enforcable and I will be all ears, failing that we are kidding ourselves. I love and appreciate that we have these discussions because it keeps people aware of the problems... but like with Lance, it got blown out of propotion because of the media and ironically because of his popularity. Do yourselves a favour and use google to search for cycling doping bans... you will be blown away at the pathetic measurement of the crime and the subsequent bans... again... ironically the fact that money was involved was the downfall of Lance... I say ironically because in our ethical, moral framework money does not feature... however it is more than likely the motivation to blur their ethical framework I would be tempted to explore the idea of making doping illegal and punnishable outside the framework of sport. however there are procedural, time and costs issues that our current climate will not allow.
Tumbleweed Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 ....blur... You could have summed it with that word. The rest is rubbish. Lance didn't get blown out of proportion by the media. When you make Nike adverts about how clean you are when you aren't, you have no one except yourself to blame for the magnitude of the punishment meted out.
PygaSchmyga Posted April 6, 2016 Posted April 6, 2016 Seriously... eeeeish!... I am dissapointed at how you guys only see that "mob justice" is the answer. Rules are rules... and term served is just that... if you dont like it, help make the change where it counts. Thats the thing about being civilised: you create systems that are presumed "fair" until they are not and then you change them if they are no longer serving the purpose intended. If someone has served their term, they are 100% legit to return. in fact I do not see how a UCI event could decline an entry after someone has served their term. I guess they could go to the CAS and fight? I guess private races can do what they want [sic] And as for Lance... he is still my hero. Get involved. help eradicate this rot. give the true athletes a fair fight.That pretty much says it all - about the topic and your values. No need to carry on.
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