EmptyB Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 100%. I've also seen it with people who just go in and the person doing the fitment is useless. When I saw Renay doing his fitments - the full ones - it was a different thing entirely. I know Jeroen also works along the same principles, but only if you tell him what you're looking for will you be able to get a setup that suits you. I still maintain though, that for anything other than jeep trackery, a stem longer than 70-80mm is the wrong solution. People should rather be concentrating on the top tube & reach numbers (together with other metrics) to get the fit right, before slapping a stem on. That actually means going for a bike fit before you buy a bike, and using those measurements (reach etc) to determine the best frame for your body / fit, and then choosing from a variety of stem lengths and bar widths - 0mm in Mondraker's case and 35mm everywhere else to 70mm stem length - and bar width between 700 and 800 depending on terrain and personal preference. I still think a bar under 700mm is a bit silly, though, unless physical constraints dictate otherwise. Like in the case of a lightie, or a really short person... EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is what I'm doing right now. Ergofit in 2 stages....done the first part with body measurements etc. When the build is virtually complete I will finish the fitment and choose stem length, bar width based on what I want from the bike...........
GoLefty!! Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 100%. I've also seen it with people who just go in and the person doing the fitment is useless. When I saw Renay doing his fitments - the full ones - it was a different thing entirely. I know Jeroen also works along the same principles, but only if you tell him what you're looking for will you be able to get a setup that suits you. I still maintain though, that for anything other than jeep trackery, a stem longer than 70-80mm is the wrong solution. People should rather be concentrating on the top tube & reach numbers (together with other metrics) to get the fit right, before slapping a stem on. That actually means going for a bike fit before you buy a bike, and using those measurements (reach etc) to determine the best frame for your body / fit, and then choosing from a variety of stem lengths and bar widths - 0mm in Mondraker's case and 35mm everywhere else to 70mm stem length - and bar width between 700 and 800 depending on terrain and personal preference. I still think a bar under 700mm is a bit silly, though, unless physical constraints dictate otherwise. Like in the case of a lightie, or a really short person... You still contradict yourself too....You say that one should do a bike fit to find a solution that results in a short stem wide bar setup.get over yourself man. A bike fit is there to determine how your proportions will relate to a bikes geometry and that solution may dictate a longer stem. AS usual you debate to suit your solution. Bar width and stem length are outcomes. Unless you are ordering a custom mtb frame your approach has no validity. First thing a rider has to do is pedal the bike. So seat angle and crank arm length + foot size and toe length (so people have moerse long toes, I swear they sleep hanging upside down)Next thing is their toes should not touch the front wheel. (front centre is important)head angle is a solution to get the fork to join the down and top tubes whilst allowing a reasonable reach. that may result in a short or a long stem.the bar width is not a rule. Anything that allows sufficient control is fine. Fine tuning bar width only comes with hours of riding. s14 said..... "well lets start a story.... once upon a time a NOOB walks into a cycle shop....... so how exactly do you know how to setup someone that does not know what they want if an exact science cannot be applied... that is the problem. Very many cycling shops who offer professional setup are winging it from your measurements. and only once you are no longer a noob and actually know how you ride and sence for possibly what is wrong can the professional services really be utilized to "solve" a problem. One cannot solve a problem one does not know exists." I don't see the rerelvance of your "Story" because it offers nothing but let me humour you. the common bike fit method places a rider, even a complete noob, on a bike and applies principals developed by Sport science practitioners and physio's involved in cycling for decades. this principals are templates of what will make most people comfortable. Further comfort t or performance enhancement comes with riding and physiological adaptation.But the starting for anyone is setting default values based on principals that are known to work. As with all things in life once you participating further improvements will be found. Maybe those improvement can be found in longer stems or shorter stems, wider bars or narrower bars, different saddles, more or less seta post clamp set back or even a completely different bike. Every problem has a solution and that solution has to start at an known point. A good bike fit is such a starting point.
RockCoach Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 For above situation I do a basic bike fit. and not charge the customer. My experience with bike fitting is that you get a basic fit and then tweak it over time. This is how it was done 25 years ago when I started road racing. Back then most guys riding races were professional riders or very experienced. They helped you with the tweaking.
s14phoenix Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 The relevance you have just explained to yourself in the last half of your extensively lengthy explanation of what I said... @ GoLefty... Ok we get it you are right... i'll humour you also... The fact is that there are many different ways to adjust fitment. the problem is that often the wrong choices are made to make a "Fit" or should I rather say to make a sale because a longer stem is always on the shelf isn't it??? Not always the right choice though. And neither is a longer bar, or setback seatpost or shorter crank... 2 things have to be understood...1. Fit and the bike handling are 2 different things.2. It is possible that some options can improve both fit and handling. Can I just add that for someone that has such a strong view on advise handed out on this forum you dispense an awful amount of advise yourself... so maybe then going to have bike fit done with a reputable professional is also not recommended??? Or did I just make it recommended again by advising not to??? Fact is that you seem to be on some personal vendetta against something here and in doing so not actually helping. You just seem to be attacking everything that is getting said and I am sure the OP has no idea what to even make of it all. Back on topic. How do we help this hubber?
s14phoenix Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 For above situation I do a basic bike fit. and not charge the customer. My experience with bike fitting is that you get a basic fit and then tweak it over time. This is how it was done 25 years ago when I started road racing. Back then most guys riding races were professional riders or very experienced. They helped you with the tweaking. Agreed. I still want the results from the fit though.
GoLefty!! Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 The relevance you have just explained to yourself in the last half of your extensively lengthy explanation of what I said... @ GoLefty... Ok we get it you are right... i'll humour you also... The fact is that there are many different ways to adjust fitment. the problem is that often the wrong choices are made to make a "Fit" or should I rather say to make a sale because a longer stem is always on the shelf isn't it??? Not always the right choice though. And neither is a longer bar, or setback seatpost or shorter crank... 2 things have to be understood...1. Fit and the bike handling are 2 different things.2. It is possible that some options can improve both fit and handling. Can I just add that for someone that has such a strong view on advise handed out on this forum you dispense an awful amount of advise yourself... so maybe then going to have bike fit done with a reputable professional is also not recommended??? Or did I just make it recommended again by advising not to??? Fact is that you seem to be on some personal vendetta against something here and in doing so not actually helping. You just seem to be attacking everything that is getting said and I am sure the OP has no idea what to even make of it all. Back on topic. How do we help this hubber? no vendetta, just pointing out that making bold claims for replacing one component does not address the basics that have to be in place first.tha is proper fit firstride,fine tune fit to suit your style.bear in mind adaptation takes months extending to years. an anatomical problem like a numb hands does not get solved by blanket proclamations of changing the bars when the cause of the numb hands has not even been established yet.
Headshot Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 no vendetta, just pointing out that making bold claims for replacing one component does not address the basics that have to be in place first.tha is proper fit firstride,fine tune fit to suit your style.bear in mind adaptation takes months extending to years. an anatomical problem like a numb hands does not get solved by blanket proclamations of changing the bars when the cause of the numb hands has not even been established yet.One thing i didnt catch in #98 above was any reference to the intended use of the bike. A bike fit like you describe is aimed at an XC or marathon rider IMHO. I am sure a bike fit on my short stemmed wide bar bike would cause some consternation from the XC/marathon oriented bike fit experts in SA. The fact is my bike is biased towards descending not pedaling efficiency. So, i agree with you to the extent that the OP probably isn't looking for that, El Cap's short stem wide bars advice is probably not applicable. On the other hand, on a bike with a longer front center which appears to be the fashion now, you are probably finding that stems are getting shorter even on XC bikes. That can only be a good thing in my mind. One thing that I have learned over the last couple of years is that there is vast variation between what different pro's will use on DH oriented bikes ( # enduro). Some like longer bikes, others prefer short bikes with high front ends, soft suspension or hard. No one size fits all. They are all however united on the short stem ( 30 - 60mm) and wide bar - wide being anything over 740 mm, I think.
GoLefty!! Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 One thing i didnt catch in #98 above was any reference to the intended use of the bike. A bike fit like you describe is aimed at an XC or marathon rider IMHO. I am sure a bike fit on my short stemmed wide bar bike would cause some consternation from the XC/marathon oriented bike fit experts in SA. The fact is my bike is biased towards descending not pedaling efficiency. So, i agree with you to the extent that the OP probably isn't looking for that, El Cap's short stem wide bars advice is probably not applicable. On the other hand, on a bike with a longer front center which appears to be the fashion now, you are probably finding that stems are getting shorter even on XC bikes. That can only be a good thing in my mind. One thing that I have learned over the last couple of years is that there is vast variation between what different pro's will use on DH oriented bikes ( # enduro). Some like longer bikes, others prefer short bikes with high front ends, soft suspension or hard. No one size fits all. They are all however united on the short stem ( 30 - 60mm) and wide bar - wide being anything over 740 mm, I think. Yes this is not in dispute. The trend toward bigger wheels necessitates a longer front centre. This means a longer top tube and less trail. Slack head angles work best with a shorter stem. So the trend toward the shorter stems is a result of a need to package the bike around bigger wheels within a sensible wheel base while keeping the rider in a position to extract the pedalling efficiency.Bikes powered by gravity are a different kettle of fish because they[re deisgned to be set up with a rearward weight bias to keep the CG between the wheels. The wider bars work very well with the these bikes because the slack angles, fat tyres and rearward bias, plus the need for slower steering at speed it makes sense to go wider. XC and Marathon bikes have a different requirement and to a limited extent AM bikes are more similar to these than they are to DH bikes. They're still designed to be pedaled hence the idea of fitting a rider to a bike so it can be pedalled more efficiently holds true for probably 95% of riders out there. Enduro riders, especially the international guys come from a DH back ground so they have brought the set up thinking of that discipline to Enduro because its what they know. They set the bikes up to play to their strengths. But again even there it's a matter of the wider bar allowing them more control at far greater speeds than any Tokai mortal riders their rigs down our mountain. Wider bars shorter stems are a relative thing and depends on what works for YOU. Solutions an individual finds thats works for themselves is not necessarily applicable to others
Skylark Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Mr Lefty you have mixed a lot of good advice with mud! Why make lofty assumptions about who rides what, why and how?I'm very sure plenty weekend warrior AM/enduro guys reach speeds flying down Tokai(or any other spot)very similar to any pro would riding a championship event, that's just common sense and doesn't imply they are ready to take on the pros. Enduro guys setting up their bikes similar to DH because that's all they know, that's positively ridiculous. Those top enduro guys know their game and their bikes inside out, they have the technical teams from cyclings most revered brands constantly seeking ways to get them on the podium. And yet you say that whole industry is so useless at what they do that they are still fumbling around in the dark copying the setups the Dh guys use because that's all they have to go on.That is bollocks. Wide bars and short stems rule if your priorities skew to handling over pedalling efficiency, its just a choice.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Oh, that's hilarious... Really funny. Thanks Tim. That gave me a good laugh
GoLefty!! Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Mr Lefty you have mixed a lot of good advice with mud! Why make lofty assumptions about who rides what, why and how?I'm very sure plenty weekend warrior AM/enduro guys reach speeds flying down Tokai(or any other spot)very similar to any pro would riding a championship event, that's just common sense and doesn't imply they are ready to take on the pros. Enduro guys setting up their bikes similar to DH because that's all they know, that's positively ridiculous. Those top enduro guys know their game and their bikes inside out, they have the technical teams from cyclings most revered brands constantly seeking ways to get them on the podium. And yet you say that whole industry is so useless at what they do that they are still fumbling around in the dark copying the setups the Dh guys use because that's all they have to go on.That is bollocks. Wide bars and short stems rule if your priorities skew to handling over pedalling efficiency, its just a choice. you make ridiculous assumptions and have taken everything out of context to suit your point of view. Yes Enduro guys set their bikes siimilarly to what they would do on a DH rig because they focus on making the bike faster on the timed sections which are mostly downhill... similarity? Always happy to make you smile Miles.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 Yes this is not in dispute. The trend toward bigger wheels necessitates a longer front centre. This means a longer top tube and less trail. Slack head angles work best with a shorter stem. So the trend toward the shorter stems is a result of a need to package the bike around bigger wheels within a sensible wheel base while keeping the rider in a position to extract the pedalling efficiency. It's ALSO as a result of the fact that bikes handle better with short stems and wide bars. Fact. You can get behind the saddle easier, and you can position your body in such a way that makes the technical stuff that much easier to negotiate, given that your weight is positioned more centrally. The added leverage also helps. New bikes with longer top tubes are designed around this. Longer stems mean that your weight is positioned further forward, which disrupts the bike's handling characteristics when things get techy. They also limit the level to which you can get behind the saddle, which means you have to work harder to get over the same technical bits that would be a doddle with a shorter stem and wider bar. Bikes powered by gravity are a different kettle of fish because they[re deisgned to be set up with a rearward weight bias to keep the CG between the wheels. The wider bars work very well with the these bikes because the slack angles, fat tyres and rearward bias, plus the need for slower steering at speed it makes sense to go wider. Exactly! That's why the industry is putting longer top tubes and shorter / wider cockpit combos on pretty much every bike now. This rings true for EVERY discipline. Plus, all riders should have their weight centrally oriented ie: between the wheels and above the BB - not just DH riders. That's just good technique! XC and Marathon bikes have a different requirement and to a limited extent AM bikes are more similar to these than they are to DH bikes. They're still designed to be pedaled hence the idea of fitting a rider to a bike so it can be pedalled more efficiently holds true for probably 95% of riders out there. No one has EVER disputed that here. What we've said is that for the majority of instances a short stem and wide bar will A: Increase handling efficiency when the going gets tough. B: Allow a more open chest (this is just plain logic due to the way you're able to breathe more efficiently when your hands are splayed wider and you're huddled over the bars - don't bring professional road riders into this, who have trained for years in cramped positions and have become attuned to it, thereby having oddly shaped chests - I'm talking about Joe Average here, who battles to breathe when they're cramped) and C: Allow you to get ove rhte back easier and keep your weight positioned over the BB. Pedalling efficiency is still a concern, but that's why it's so important to get saddle positioning correct. Your leg & hip positioning when in a seated position and cranking out the watts should be the same between every single bike you have except for a tri bike, which has additional requirements due to the way you are in a permanently hunched over state. If you draw a Right Angled triangle between the middle of the seat, the BB and the chainstays directly below the saddle, it should be the same between your road bike, XC bike and AM bike. This is to keep the kinematics of your body constant so that you're achieving the pedalling efficiency across all platforms. Enduro riders, especially the international guys come from a DH back ground so they have brought the set up thinking of that discipline to Enduro because its what they know. They set the bikes up to play to their strengths. But again even there it's a matter of the wider bar allowing them more control at far greater speeds than any Tokai mortal riders their rigs down our mountain. Wider bars shorter stems are a relative thing and depends on what works for YOU. Solutions an individual finds thats works for themselves is not necessarily applicable to others Again, you get it yet you don't. This is NOT road riding where a long stem is okay, and positioning your weight over the BB on an MTB is a constant battle depending on the terrain that you're on. Again - a short stem and wide bar combo allows you to handle the bike more easily at speed than with a long stem and narrow bar. If for no other reasons than the weight positioning and extra leverage that the set up allows. It also allows you to manhandle the bike easier, pick up the front of the bike with less effort and negotiate technical challenges with more control. Again, I will say it. Get to know your ideal measurements before you choose a frame / bike. Take those, then apply it to the selection using a stem range of between 30 & 70 mm (which normally allows for 2 frame sizes) and then get a wide bar so that you can trim it down to fit your personal preferences once you have the right size bike, and you've gone for a fit to determine proper saddle positioning with the particular dimensions of the new frame. IF YOU NEED TO PUT A 100MM STEM ON TO MAKE IT FIT, YOU'RE ON A BIKE THAT IS TOO SHORT FOR YOU. End van prent. If you prefer a twitchier ride, put on a slightly narrower bar. If you prefer it more controlled, you need a wider bar. Just don't put a 100mm stem on to "make it fit"As for the smile, it was purely in reaction to the comedy of the post.... You're right - fit IS important. That was never in doubt. But what is also important is ensuring that the bike's handling characteristics aren't in danger of bein compromised, and if you have a look at the title of the thread, that's exactly what would have happened had a longer stem been motivated. A wider bar sorts out the fit issues without having to extend the cockpit, and it gives a good base to work from given that he SAID he was feeling cramped.
GoLefty!! Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 there you go again justifying your pov as the absolute answer without knowing anything about how he currently fits on the bike.
Skylark Posted February 5, 2015 Posted February 5, 2015 you make ridiculous assumptions and have taken everything out of context to suit your point of view. Yes Enduro guys set their bikes siimilarly to what they would do on a DH rig because they focus on making the bike faster on the timed sections which are mostly downhill... similarity? Always happy to make you smile Miles.Says the chap that informed us that the Enduro pros only use short stems and wide bars because they don't know any better and that the wannabes at Tokai ride like grannies. Maybe the gap in your understanding is that the distinct difference between Enduro and Dh is the Enduro guys have to ride up as well as down, they must have their bikes setup to perfection for the best compromise between downhill handling and pedalling efficiency, that's their hallmark. Me personally I was amazed at the extra pedalling leverage I gained with wider bars, PEDALLING UP HILLS, unexpected and very welcome benefit. But I suppose let's put aside our personal bike preferences and focus on helping the op get his bike setup the way he wants, we all ride what makes us smile at the end of the day.
GoLefty!! Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 extra pedaling leverage with wider bars .......LOL Ok well I guess pulling at an extreme angle is much more efficient than pulling in a straight line.Let me go and design a new fangled triangular block and tackle
NicoBoshoff Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Me personally I was amazed at the extra pedalling leverage I gained with wider bars, PEDALLING UP HILLS, unexpected and very welcome benefit. No.
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