tombeej Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Again i never stated that they dope outright as there is no concrete proof for now in anycase. From my very first post i was wondering and speculating. If i was forced to choose between yes and no i would say yes. Reasons was well dovumented. Anyways you raise an opinion and get crucified. Thats typical hub style. My fur is thick. Read my posts again. No-one is crucifying you, Garfield. Just some robust engagement on what is a very hot topic. I thought you said your fur is thick? OK, I'll leave you alone now. Sorry if I caused you any stress . (And I'm also done with this topic. From now, I'm going to adopt the 'Dale Protocol: just stick to the racing.)
Garfield2010 Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 David Walsh was crucified by 99% of all people for first saying Lance doped 15 years ago. He recieved death threats. Look how that story turned out...... Anybody who does not have suspicions after yesterday is either very new to the sport and does not know the history or is mentally retarded.????
shawnvan Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Also saying Froome was average and the rest sucked is also not a watertight argument. I have read 10 books + on cycling and doping. It opened my eyes. Its incredible really how many people just decide he is clean because they want him to be clean. There are signs me says. Watch this space. Nor is saying that because Froome attacked and gained time over other major rivals a valid argument that he is doping (not sying that you are sying this - seems to be others' conjecture). I do agree with you that something about Sky all just doesn't fit right... Wiggo and Froome - relative nobodies to convincing Tour winners. Hope I am wrong. Oh, and FWIW: I think Frederik van Lierde's performance at IM SA this year was "super human"... gaining 14 minutes in 45km when others are already riding at 270W+... I say no more....
tombeej Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 I disagree with this. My point of view often changes in discussions like this. Information that is new to me is often provided. When explaining my point of view, I often realize my own logical errors (sadly often after I've posted.) I think that a changing opinion is an indication of an open mind (in a good way.) To me, changing an opinion, be it mine or someone else's, is the whole point of having a discussion/debate. I think you missed my point. I was asking Garfield to do exactly that: to persuade people (like me) to his way of thinking using considered reasoning based on facts and not emotion. Check my post again. I was ready with an open mind. But there is a big difference between flip-flopping (back tracking and denying) and having your point of view changed by effective persuasion. Anyway, like I said I'm done with this roundabout. Bye.
Brickleberry Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 I love how everyone on the Hub always has so much to say about how dirty Astana is, but when they get obliterated by not 1 but 3 of sky's riders and you mention doping , you get a ooh no not Froome. I love them all, but I'm a realist. You don't do this kind of thing naturally. Couldn't do it naturally 10 years ago.certainly can't do it all quicker and naturally now. If cycling were to actually clean up, the 3 week tours would be gone and the times would drop dramatically in other races.
Andrew Steer Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 I love how everyone on the Hub always has so much to say about how dirty Astana is, but when they get obliterated by not 1 but 3 of sky's riders and you mention doping , you get a ooh no not Froome. I love them all, but I'm a realist. You don't do this kind of thing naturally. Couldn't do it naturally 10 years ago.certainly can't do it all quicker and naturally now. If cycling were to actually clean up, the 3 week tours would be gone and the times would drop dramatically in other races. If you can't see any differences between Astana and Sky then I am not going to waste any time even trying to debate this with you... Oh crap The end.
Brickleberry Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 If you can't see any differences between Astana and Sky then I am not going to waste any time even trying to debate this with you... Oh crap The end.Different shades of blue and less Italians? I know there is a difference. But if Astana are so doped up, how is it possible to compete with them so easily when you are clean?
Patchelicious Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Different shades of blue and less Italians? I know there is a difference. But if Astana are so doped up, how is it possible to compete with them so easily when you are clean?A mediocre doping domestique is still not as good a good undoped GC rider. People also questioned Astana because SEVERAL of their riders had been caught doping in the last few months and have a history of it with previous management members. They were at one stage not even going to make it to the tour, they almost lost their license.Lets not forget that fact, not speculation, fact. Not really an argument here. The performance of Astana over the entire Giro, must surely be a bit more suspect than Sky's 1 day performance of yesterday?
GaryvdM Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Different shades of blue and less Italians? I know there is a difference. But if Astana are so doped up, how is it possible to compete with them so easily when you are clean?Last year, five riders with either the Astana professional WorldTour squad or the Kazakh team’s Continental affiliate failed doping tests.
Andrew Steer Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Different shades of blue and less Italians? I know there is a difference. But if Astana are so doped up, how is it possible to compete with them so easily when you are clean? Burnt all their matches at the Giro?Been under the microscope in a big way since the Giro? Bottom line is you can't compare a team with a currently perfect image, like Sky, with a team run by an unreformed doper, who've had countless positives, who've hired busted dopers and who started this tour by letting Lars Boom start despite his low cortisol levels (against the MPCC regulations)... Astana are laughing at cycling fans
edgarblount Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Different shades of blue and less Italians? I know there is a difference. But if Astana are so doped up, how is it possible to compete with them so easily when you are clean?Team Sky rides Pinarello and Astana rides Specialized. That's the difference. It's all about the bike.
Patchelicious Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Team Sky rides Pinarello and Astana rides Specialized. That's the difference. Exactly, this it makes it even more suspect!
Patchelicious Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Burnt all their matches Emptied all their BBs at the Giro?Been under the microscope in a big way since the Giro? Bottom line is you can't compare a team with a currently perfect image, like Sky, with a team run by an unreformed doper, who've had countless positives, who've hired busted dopers and who started this tour by letting Lars Boom start despite his low cortisol levels (against the MPCC regulations)... Astana are laughing at cycling fans Fixed
Brickleberry Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 I know Astana has a very shady past but I just think people's ideas on what PEDs can do is a little screwed. A crap rider won't win GC just cos he dopes, it's not that good. And I struggle to believe the Astana team are just doped up club riders able to compete with he worlds best due to juicing
PJP2013 Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Froome has already admitted to dopping. He had a glass of wine on the rest day.Dopping also isn't banned... However, you probably shouldn't be filling your Bidons with Shnapps... It may surprise you but in competition use of alcohol is banned. Think more a safety than performance issue though.
Patchelicious Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 I know Astana has a very shady past but I just think people's ideas on what PEDs can do is a little screwed. A crap rider won't win GC just cos he dopes, it's not that good. And I struggle to believe the Astana team are just doped up club riders able to compete with he worlds best due to juicing? Really? Who called them club riders.... they are world tour riders, but they are not greats! Quick, mention the names of the guys who have been banned in the last 12 months from Astana without googling it? Bet you cant, thats because they are not GC contenders, they werent good enough for it. ai never mind, not worth it....
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