Power and heart rate monitors

[The Hawk CT]

Really interesting tread!!!

From what I see SSISA did research regarding power and HR training in High Intensity Training. At the end of the day it seem to have found out that HR training yielded a greater improvement in VO2 max and Peak power output. This was scientifically proved and will be published in some International journal.

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From what I see is there are documented proof that validates this. Can it be made available if the ordinary man would like to see?

 

BikeMax ? Are you saying that there is research or data that can prove training with a power meter is better than training with Heart Rate (high intensity training).

What I do know is that you must have prescribe power based intervals for your clients over a 3-4 week period? you have a log on system where all your client data is stored. Can you forward or make available information that suggests a greater improvement than 4-7% in power-based training.

 

A power meter cost between R8500 ? R45000. This is a huge layout of money for the ordinary man in the street. A heart rate monitor will cost you about R300. The cost of a coach on a monthly bases is +-R350 (BikeMax)?.

 

What I also do know is that if one spends this amount of money on power based training then you will make the time to get up in winter at 4:30am and ride your bike.

[The Hawk CT]

Can anyone tell me if Boonen and Betinni trains with power meters? I have seen so many pics of them and those machines they on with Campy record cranks... never seen a SRM or powertap on any of there bikes????

Seems like training with a power meter makes a huge whole in the pocket of the ordinary man for the final result... it does make cycling conversation more interesting though!!!

[The Doctor]

Peter

 

That is exactly what happens with research. You start out by wanting to answer one question and you end up with a whole nest of questions that require more research.

 

The simple answer is that if you are going to do an 8 x 4min session at above LT then it is easier and more effective to do the session based on heart rate.

 

If you are going to do a T-max session then you use a target power.

 

If you do a blowout session then you use a target power.

 

If you do any other session then toss a coin for now.

 

It is important not to adopt a position when some new technology arrives that you throw out the previous technology and make the automatic assumption that the older technology is inferior in every sinlge aspect.

 

You need to establish the rules by scientific validation and then move forward.

 

 

 

[Dr. Seuss]

 

Can anyone tell me if Boonen and Betinni trains with power meters? I have seen so many pics of them and those machines they on with Campy record cranks... never seen a SRM or powertap on any of there bikes????

Seems like training with a power meter makes a huge whole in the pocket of the ordinary man for the final result... it does make cycling conversation more interesting though!!!

 

keep in mind that boonen et al have all the time in the world to train. 

 

i only have 1h30min in the morning before work - the PT helps me make the most of the time I have available and helps to keep me honest. 

 

since i got the PT i no longer do any 4-5 hour rides of JRA (just riding around) - 3 hours is the max I will do,  but i now that i am working in those 3 hours and most probably get more work done using the PT than someone training for 5 hours without one.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Doctor]

Really interesting tread!!!

 

BikeMax ? Are you saying that there is research or data that can prove training with a power meter is better than training with Heart Rate (high intensity training).

What I do know is that you must have prescribe power based intervals for your clients over a 3-4 week period? you have a log on system where all your client data is stored. Can you forward or make available information that suggests a greater improvement than 4-7% in power-based training.

 

A power meter cost between R8500 ? R45000. This is a huge layout of money for the ordinary man in the street. A heart rate monitor will cost you about R300. The cost of a coach on a monthly bases is +-R350 (BikeMax)?.

 

What I also do know is that if one spends this amount of money on power based training then you will make the time to get up in winter at 4:30am and ride your bike.

 

This debate is not on whether buying a power meter is a good investment. If you are looking to maximise your training then a power meter is going to help you achieve that aim.

 

The debate is about the prescription of training intensity. You can prescribe heart rate, power, RPE, speed etc.

 

Of these power is the most accurate measure of work performed.

 

BUT

 

Is it always best to be accurate?

 

This seems like a mute question but the answer is surprising!

[Slowbee]

since i got the PT i no longer do any 4-5 hour rides of JRA (just riding around) - 3 hours is the max I will do' date='  but i now that i am working in those 3 hours and most probably get more work done using the PT than someone training for 5 hours without one.



[/quote']

 

i like that ... honey i am going JRA ... going to be looking for LBJ's in woods. Keep the KFC in the MO, back later !!

 

Surely Dt Suess, weekends are designed for JRA? Although you wouldnt want to work to hard, I mean sweating for long hours just creates bad BO

 

[Marius]

 

A power meter cost between R8500 ? R45000. This is a huge layout of money for the ordinary man in the street. A heart rate monitor will cost you about R300. The cost of a coach on a monthly bases is +-R350 (BikeMax

 

Even a Power Tap starts at less than R8500 The Hawk. a PowerMeter eg. Polar Power meter is about R2k? or there about and a coach is not only used for Power Training but for HR Base training as well.<?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

I'd say HR vs Power cancels each other out. On hot days you are going to work a lot harder( we don't all train in temp control rooms) with your Power meter than HRM. On colder day the Power training is going to be easier and so the list goes on, at the end of the day I think you get the same benefit from both over time.

 

I training using both, if it's hot I'd go with HR values or close to, if you have been training with both for a long time you get a good idea how to use these best. 

[White51]

Power with heart rate limiters!!

 

Your power is an independant source, you will always push the same power no matter if you have a hangover or a bad sleep. Heartrate is dependant on sleep, what you eat etc etc.

 

Power is easy to do your training with the knowledge that you are not overtraining. Heartrate you can do very bad damage to yourself, especially with the likes of interval and intense training.

[White51]

If it didn't make a difference pro's would not spend 30k on SRMs and coaches wouldn't advise it.

Power is the way, it's expensive no doubt but i have a powermeter and I had a heartrate monitor, it extremely different.

[The Doctor]

Can anyone tell me if Boonen and Betinni trains with power meters? I have seen so many pics of them and those machines they on with Campy record cranks... never seen a SRM or powertap on any of there bikes????

Seems like training with a power meter makes a huge whole in the pocket of the ordinary man for the final result... it does make cycling conversation more interesting though!!!

 

There are a lot of elite athletes who use "traditional" training methods and shun new technology. It begs the question whether they would be even better of they did things scientifically.

 

To win Roubaix:

 

Ride 6 hours each day behind the motorcycle

Eat pea soup mixed with mud and cow dung

Live in Belgium and drink lots of Belgian beer

Get an old, wrinkled, skinny soigneur to rub your legs all day

Rub spirits on your butt to turn the skin into leather

Get a 16 year old girlfriend and pretend that you're dating her because she's really "mature"

 

 

 

 

 

[White51]

Im pretty sure they do

[Christie]

I love this quote:

 

"Are you trying to turn me into one of those crazy riders?"

 

(Oscar Freire to his DS, when Dekker suggested he get a power meter.)

[Marius]

Can anyone tell me if Boonen and Betinni trains with power meters? I have seen so many pics of them and those machines they on with Campy record cranks... never seen a SRM or powertap on any of there bikes???? 

 

Does not really matter if Boonen uses a PowerMeter, as long as he has his HGH, EPO, Cortisone and Testosterone and expensive team Dr and racing with the best of them he'll just do fine.

[Dr. Seuss]

 

 

 

Surely Dt Suess' date=' weekends are designed for JRA?

[/quote']

 

agreed,  but i have VDW (very demanding wife)

 

 

 

[RABUBI]

But it is much nicer to compare watts than HR.

[Rocket Man]

Are you saying that the Power group didn't improve as much in the TT because they didn't believe that their training was as effective? That sounds like a bit of having your cake and eating it (isn't everyone screaming about how good power based training is?).

 

 

This is a controversial subject in it's own right Doc - did you do a double blind experiment? Did the subjects know the purpose of the tests? Did they talk to each other at any time? What were your expectations before and during the experiments? Did you look at any of the preliminary results before the experiment was completed? How's your body language (athletes are very sensitive to subliminal messages)?

 

What about the prejudices of the subjects - how many owned an HRM or PM? What were their experiences of these products like? Could they afford to buy a PM or were they subconsciously trying to justify HR based training?

 

A few years ago I set a PB for the "hour" when just the week before in ideal conditions I had died attempting the same mission. On the successful day a huge Highveld storm came up and I really had to battle. My drenched skin suit blew up like a balloon in the blustery headwind destroying the aerodynamics. Yet my ave speed was almost 7% faster than I had ever achieved before. Impossible using any purely physiological explaination. My theory is that I was so distracted by the conditions that I forgot to worry about my performance.

 

To try and quantify the effect I have set up numerous tests using my HRM and SRM to assess the impact of visualisation on heart rate, power and percieved effort. The difference between imagining "a tough race" versus "a long flat road with a strong tail wind" is a REDUCTION in hr by as much as 10bpm for the same power - for me that equates to almost 10% more power at constant heart rate.

 

During training, if I try to hold constant power then I am continually focussing on my effort and my heart rate goes up. Conversely, if I watch my heart rate then I "try" to keep it down by relaxing and thinking happy thoughts - my power then starts to climb, improving the effectiveness of the training.

 

Whilst I don't think that any of this directly contradicts your result, in my opinion it adds a massive amount of noise to the data. Do not underestimate the power of the mind to delude the body into exceptional performance. The only reason I can ride a bike at all is because I believe I'm good enough to win races. Physically, I'm a train wreck...

 

Sorry, a long post

Rocket Man2008-04-17 02:26:14