jcza Posted April 5, 2016 Share Considering the history of his team members and management and what is coming out about State sponsored doping, surely Astana must be one of the "dodgiest" teams on the World Tour at the moment? 2015 - 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakkals. Posted April 5, 2016 Share Considering the history of his team members and management and what is coming out about State sponsored doping, surely Astana must be one of the "dodgiest" teams on the World Tour at the moment?Katusha i'd say, then Astana...and then all these other small italian teams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanbean Posted April 5, 2016 Share To get the conversation back on track. Which 3 performances or situations last year made you sit up and take notice, where you found yourself asking "hmmm thats suspicious"?Astana's performance at last years giro springs to mind. In particular Arus spectacular recovery after the rest day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted April 5, 2016 Share Touche on the blinkers. So you think doping is in decline? I wonder what is causing the trend - better and more testing post the LA era? Maybe - we will never really know I guess. I think the trend is going down because of variety of reasons. More testing, more often, better testing, but also things like the fallout of getting caught, and the unwanted attention. Sky comes out blazing about being clean and only employing "clean" people and staff, the egg on face risk is so high that they will probably get shut down if one of their riders gets caught. So I think from a risk vs reward they have more to lose than some of the others, like the Kazaks, who simply shrug their shoulders and say "meh" when somebody gets caught. So those with a reputation have more to lose. Now this doesnt mean that they are clean, but they are less likely to be as blatant or take the same risks as some of the others. Eg: micro dosing vs running Riis hemocrit 60 levels Before if a dude got bust, he was slapped on the wrist, and 2 years later welcomed back. Just as was Contador... If a TDF winner got bust now, the fallout would be much bigger, this helps as a deterant. Much like the events in SA that are supporting this life time ban for dopers... makes the okes think just that bit extra about taking the blue or the red pill. So along with testing, the risks of getting caught are not only bigger but the fallout for some if greater. We actually have Lance to thank for this attention I know this is very subjective, and open to interpretation, but its a trend (even if its slight) not specific events... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted April 5, 2016 Share Astana's performance at last years giro springs to mind. In particular Arus spectacular recovery after the rest dayThats one of my top 3 too. And they openly stated that they went for "blood tests" on the rest day. Rides ***, goes for "blood test", rides like a machine..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Posted April 5, 2016 Share I think the trend is going down because of variety of reasons. More testing, more often, better testing, but also things like the fallout of getting caught, and the unwanted attention. Sky comes out blazing about being clean and only employing "clean" people and staff, the egg on face risk is so high that they will probably get shut down if one of their riders gets caught. So I think from a risk vs reward they have more to lose than some of the others, like the Kazaks, who simply shrug their shoulders and say "meh" when somebody gets caught. So those with a reputation have more to lose. Now this doesnt mean that they are clean, but they are less likely to be as blatant or take the same risks as some of the others. Eg: micro dosing vs running Riis hemocrit 60 levels Before if a dude got bust, he was slapped on the wrist, and 2 years later welcomed back. Just as was Contador... If a TDF winner got bust now, the fallout would be much bigger, this helps as a deterant. Much like the events in SA that are supporting this life time ban for dopers... makes the okes think just that bit extra about taking the blue or the red pill. So along with testing, the risks of getting caught are not only bigger but the fallout for some if greater. We actually have Lance to thank for this attention I know this is very subjective, and open to interpretation, but its a trend (even if its slight) not specific events...If we could just get WADA one step ahead of the dopers and not 5 behind. . Take this latest drug that was put on the list in Jan (the Sharapova one) .. athletes have been using it for many years., and it has been used as a PED it wasn't on the list but it doesn't mean they weren't using it to enhance their performances.. that is the problem. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted April 5, 2016 Share If we could just get WADA one step ahead of the dopers and not 5 behind. . Take this latest drug that was put on the list in Jan (the Sharapova one) .. athletes have been using it for many years., and it has been used as a PED it wasn't on the list but it doesn't mean they weren't using it to enhance their performances.. that is the problem. .I agree, the banned substance list is too far behind. Thing is, the rules are the rules.... So you almost cannot blame the athletes for using stuff thats not on the list. Else, where do you draw the line? Caffeine, energy drinks during events, alltitude training, protein shakes after rides, aero helmets etc. I know those are silly examples, its just to illistrate a point. The guys should do what they can within the rules. If the rules need to change, then they must, and it seems they must But this will be a constant battle, as medical research is such a huge industry, athletes will always look at new discoveries for advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcza Posted April 5, 2016 Share But surely Skys rep is already in tatters after JTL and Leinders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakkals. Posted April 5, 2016 Share But surely Skys rep is already in tatters after JTL and Leinders? Sky also knows how to distance themselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intern Posted April 5, 2016 Share scivspseudosci3.jpg Now we've strayed into climate change 'science'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intern Posted April 5, 2016 Share Let's look at this a different way. WorldTour pro cyclists are among the toughest mofos on the planet. These okes put their bodies on the line every time they start a race. Getting to that start line is a superhuman effort in its own right - not just any old plonker can elbow his way into the scrum and start riding.To get to that point, every one of those say 200 okes, had to climb some serious mountains (mostly figuratively, but also literally). They had to do whatever it takes. WHATEVER it takes, and it takes a lot - of sacrifice, blood (both spilled and manipulated), determination, dedication, hell, plumb your own dictionary for the adjectives, I'm sure there's plenty more).If you know anyone who has tried to make it overseas at least 'soft of well', you will know that they will tell you that rising from the bit-races in filthy Belgian streets, where even when you are trained to the max, is an insurmountable task. You do not feature at all if you are coming at it 'au naturale', it is impossibly hard. You want to make it, you do WHATEVER it takes.The way a ProTour rider 'prepares' for a race is unlike anything you or I do. Sure, they ride their bikes, but there is a hell of a lot more to it than that. Part of the preparation is undoubtedly doing things which may not be 'illegal' per se, because for example, Meldonium (or any other available substance or method) hasn't been explicitly verboten. Part of it involves using TUEs and other methods to skirt the rules (hey, if you're sick, you need the medicine, right? Even if you're just, you know, 'sick'.I've changed my view on doping somewhat. I've accepted that these okes are incredible specimens (and I really do mean 'incredible' as in 'lacking credibility) and also amazingly accomplished. Their 'preparation' is part of the sport, it always has been, it always will be.It would just be nice if they were more honest about it instead of this whole charade which goes on. I mean, can anyone really imagine that the sport is clean when a good deal of the senior members of the teams are either proven dopers or tainted by scandal in some or other way? Or that riders are welcomed back into the peloton after serving their bans, continuing as stars in many cases? Come on man. Foxes and henhouses. Doping is tolerated because the sport as a whole has one set of rules for the tifosi and another for the riders. Those okes appreciate that preparation is important and they don't spit in someone else's soup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDF Posted April 6, 2016 Share Some 2015 stats from the SAIDS web site:Total tests done: 2730Positive findings: 30 Rugby: 11 of 528 tests = 2% positives Athletics: 9 of 262 tests = 3.4% positives Cycling: 6 (Road: 4 MTB: 2) of 428 tests = 1.4% positives Powerlifting: 2 of 136 tests = 1.5% positives Wrestling: 1 of 22 tests = 4.5% positives Judo: 1 of 4 tests = 25% positives Overall cycling (of the positive tests) was the lowest percentage of offenders vs all the others who got bust. Seems judo are pretty bad! I know the test numbers are low on some of the more marginal sports and this exaggerates the percentages but compared to rugby and athletics, cycling seem to be the good guys! how come these other sports don't get painted in such a bad light as cycling does? Bigger sponsors maybe? who knows. I personally know a powerlifter who tested positive at SA champs in 2012. He was totally unrepentant! not only that but he was a world champ and record holder at the time. No press on that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pe3nguin Posted April 6, 2016 Share If you know anyone who has tried to make it overseas at least 'soft of well', you will know that they will tell you that rising from the bit-races in filthy Belgian streets, where even when you are trained to the max, is an insurmountable task. You do not feature at all if you are coming at it 'au naturale', it is impossibly hard. You want to make it, you do WHATEVER it takes. Errr. Maybe ten years ago. Currently in Belgium (or Flanders at least) there is drug testing at every little shitty Kermesse and inter-club race. You damn well go look at that yellow slip after each race in case your name is on it because you are looking for huge trouble if you even absent mindedly fail to present yourself at a test you have been selected for. [2 years for failing to show]. Those ******* are tough because their domestic programme allows for it. Races every day from early March to middle of October means kids are racing from a young age and developing in the toughest environment in road racing. I'm not trying to say the juice doesnt play a part in Flemish cycling, but I think you are massively underplaying just how hard the racing is. The support structures from WBV are there to ensure a tough clean sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edition 507 Posted April 6, 2016 Share It's comforting that the two biggest transformations in cycling, Wiggins & Froome against the backdrop of mass doping globally are cleanFunniest quote of the year!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halfdoesyn Posted April 6, 2016 Share Some 2015 stats from the SAIDS web site:Total tests done: 2730Positive findings: 30 Rugby: 11 of 528 tests = 2% positives Athletics: 9 of 262 tests = 3.4% positives Cycling: 6 (Road: 4 MTB: 2) of 428 tests = 1.4% positives Powerlifting: 2 of 136 tests = 1.5% positives Wrestling: 1 of 22 tests = 4.5% positives Judo: 1 of 4 tests = 25% positives Overall cycling (of the positive tests) was the lowest percentage of offenders vs all the others who got bust. Seems judo are pretty bad! I know the test numbers are low on some of the more marginal sports and this exaggerates the percentages but compared to rugby and athletics, cycling seem to be the good guys! how come these other sports don't get painted in such a bad light as cycling does? Bigger sponsors maybe? who knows. I personally know a powerlifter who tested positive at SA champs in 2012. He was totally unrepentant! not only that but he was a world champ and record holder at the time. No press on that one?Interesting reading. Wonder how many tests per competitor per race/competition for each sport. Powerlifting profile is significantly lower than that of cycling, and who knows what the culture in that sport is like i.t.o. doping. Maybe that explains the attitude. But then again, LA was also pretty aggressive right up until his demise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Dale Posted April 6, 2016 Share Anyone know the next steps now that Doc has declared this statement?Is the You Cee Eye investigating?What's happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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