What was thread about? - can't remember!

[jmaccelari]

 

btw' date=' your website is an amazing example of minimalism, I hope that was the school you were going for.[/quote']

Erm - not really. I just haven't gotten aroud to doing anything with it yet.

 

However, it was lovingly handcrafted in vi...

 

[jmaccelari]

 

I enjoy the teachings of the 4 apostles.......

John....Paul......George......and RINGO!!!!!

And now for the million dollar question:

Who was the fifth apostle?"

Neil?!!!

Billy Preston

 

[Delgado]

Spot on !! 

[Joe Low]

If you're not a happy person who clearly loves life and those around them, then your philosophical or faith position isn't really worth very much.

 

I've not met too many genuinely happy people but the ones I've known have had varying beliefs - Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, buddhist and none.  The spirit in them has been the same, though.

 

 

Joe Low2008-05-10 10:04:16

[Witrot]

Look' date=' the bottom line is that it is irrational to believe in something for which there is no scientific or evidentiary proof.

 

It is not a question of knowing whether a god exists or believing whether a god exists. The question you must ask is whether there is any evidence of a god's existence. Clearly there isn't.

[/quote']

 

Well....actaully scientific proof you can't believe either. As most scientific proof is only estimates of what may really be something or even maybe nothing!

 

 

[NotSoBigBen]

Flip guys get over yourselves! What site is this? Is it not thehubsa or perhaps christianrus.co.za?

 

I have my own religious beliefs but doubt I would debate them on a cycling website ..............

[linnega]

 

Look' date=' the bottom line is that it is irrational to believe in something for which there is no scientific or evidentiary proof.

 

It is not a question of knowing whether a god exists or believing whether a god exists. The question you must ask is whether there is any evidence of a god's existence. Clearly there isn't.

[/quote']

Logical reasoning in fact tells me that it is ludicrous to believe that there is no higher power.  The chances of the million of circumstances that had to come together to create this world and universe are too great to honestly believe there is no higher power.  The is no scientific or evidentiary proof about a lot of things that involve creation.

 

[Windbreaker]

 

I have no problem with "evidence based" philosophy.

 

But' date=' let's consider the evidence.  Just the creation of a human being is a process that's complexity is far greater than humans (the supreme beings on our planet) can accomplish.  We don't even fully understand the human body works, never mind being the creator of it.

 

The planet earth is still not fully understood.  The combination of elements at the core is just right to sustain life on the planet - surely something far greater than humans can accomplish.

 

So, it is clear that humans are not the creator, so who is?  There are two answers, either a random collection of elements came together to start the process, or there is an ultimate creator (or certainly an entity with far greater powers than humans).

 

In my mind, to believe that all these things happened randomly, that the improvements in species through evolution is purely luck, requires a far greater leap of faith, than to believe there is a creator, that we don't yet understand.

 

The Christians call that creator God.  And assign other benevolent responsibilities to that creator - such as ensuring certain laws are in place so that we can try to live together, and giving meaning to our lives.

 

After a lot of thought about this in my life, I've come to the conclusion that believing that there is no creator, is far less plausible, than believing there is.  Debate will rage as to which god the creator actually is.  But that is a different topic.

[/quote']Bruce, you have just found found a level of reasoning that you are comfortable with, which is exactly the same as the person that says "I'll believe just in case ... "

 

I am surprised that no-one has introduced the concept of infinity into the debate. If you believe in infinity then I don't know how you can believe that there is an almighty creator. At the risk of sounding really base ... who created him/it?

 

Infinity dictates that our "random" existence is inevitable. Humans simply cannot really grasp the concept of infinity and therefore we will never be able to answer the Big question. About the same as expecting a chimpanzee to understand the concept of the nuclear fission.

 

 

 

[linnega]

I would have to agree with you on the concept of infinity.  It is not possible for us to grasp infinity and I would guess that the combined intellect of all humans on this planet could not truly explain infinity.  Linking the infinity to the existence of God in the way though is very simplistic, no more simplistic than the Christian belief that God is infinite in which case he needs not have a creator nor an end.  How that is possible cannot be explained as we don't have an understanding of God nor of infinity.  Convenient, I know, but that really does leave us with no resolution to the debate.

[bruce]

Bruce' date=' you have just found found a level of reasoning that you are comfortable with, which is exactly the same as the person that says "I'll believe just in case ... "

[/quote']

 

Unfortunately I'm not that comfortable with it.  It is much easier just to deny the existence of something because I cannot comprehend the evidence.

 

To date organised religion has not answered many of the questions that I have.  The fundamental dichotomy that we have been given the ability to reason, yet are asked to accept certain propositions without questioning does not sit well with me.

 

One thing for sure, if mankind pursued a policy of denial of existence because of insufficient or non-existent proof, then we would certainly not have made the progress that we have made.

 

Our knowledge is certainly not perfect.  In engineering terms we call these things "models" in that they explain the properties of a phenomenon that we can observe, but are simplified so that we can comprehend them.

 

 

[Windbreaker]

 

...  Linking the infinity to the existence of God in the way though is very simplistic' date=' no more simplistic than the Christian belief that God is infinite in which case he needs not have a creator nor an end.  How that is possible cannot be explained as we don't have an understanding of God nor of infinity.  Convenient, I know, but that really does leave us with no resolution to the debate.

[/quote'] Exactly. But my simplistic view doesn't assume one way or the other. So not being at all religious I accept that it is all just too huge for me to comprehend but it also lets me accept that the likelihood of heaven & hell (which is really what this is all about) is also not high.

 

At the end of the day all anyone can do is try to live by what they feel is right & wrong (but is it really wrong to commit murder for example? ) and supposing that there is the judgment thing to come, if that isn't enough then ... .

 

I think that this is a safer option than trying to jump through very specific hoops that each religion sets in order to allow humans to get to heaven. That can only lead to conflict escalating all the way up to war etc etc

 

[Windbreaker]

 

The fundamental dichotomy that we have been given the ability to reason' date=' yet are asked to accept certain propositions without questioning does not sit well with me.

[/quote']Why do you say that we have been "given" the specific ability to reason? Why could it not just have been developed as a matter of evolution (assuming that you agree that evolution as a consequence of infinity) rather than something that has been granted to us?

 

[JasonW]

Look' date=' the bottom line is that it is irrational to believe in something for which there is no scientific or?evidentiary proof.

?

It is not a question of knowing whether a god exists or believing whether a god exists. The question you must ask is whether there is any evidence of a god's existence. Clearly there isn't.

[/quote']

Logical reasoning in fact tells me that it is ludicrous to believe that there is no higher power.? The chances of the million of circumstances that had to come together to create this world and universe are too great to honestly believe there is no higher power.? The is no scientific or evidentiary proof about a lot of things that involve creation.

 

All due respect, but your 'logical reasoning' is fatally flawed. There is plenty of evidence to explain the origin of life on earth and the earth itself. To simply claim that a god created it all in six days, simply because some book / fable tells you so is illogical and unscientific.

 

Again I note that you have not provided any evidence of a god's existence.

 

[fandacious]

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

[fandacious]

faith also dictates that I must believe there is an invisible pink unicorn that no-one can see. Or that there is a teapot orbiting betweent jupiter and venus that telescopes cant pick up.

[porky]

It always amazes me the length people will go to try and disprove something.

 

Why?

 

Most non-believers have a very firm grasp of religion because they spend an inordinate amount of time trying to disprove it. You question faith, but you took a huge leap of faith when you went to bed last night, because in your heart, you believed you would wake up this morning, you didnt know,.... you just took it for granted, you had faith.!

 

When I marvel at the miracle of life, the wonder of birth, when I hold a new born baby in my arms, when I see a mothers love for her infant, when I hear the tinkle of a childs laughter, when I sit alone at night and listen to the rolling thunder, when I feel the sun on my face and the warm sand beneath my feet, when I awake at night and look out at the glittering stars, when I watch the ocean and the birds flying eastward,....... I lift my eyes, and I see the face of my God.!!

 

Thats all I need to believe.

 

 

porky2008-05-11 02:24:54