Building your ultimate Road TRAINING wheelset

[greatwhite]

If you wanted to build a set of wheel that would last many tens of thousands of KM with minimal maintenance and was reasonable value for money, what rims, hubs, spoke etc would you use and why. This topic tends to be geared to the bigger people out there since the 60-70kg lightweights can ride 20 spoke race wheels and never get a fatigue crack in the rim or a broken spoke. For reference, my last 2 set of training wheels have been:

1. Shimano Dura Ace 7700 hubs with 32 DT Comp Spokes and Mavic Open PRO rims, then Shimano PRO R-50 rims on rebuild (very similar to the Open PRO Mavics)

2. Shimano Dura Ace 7800 hubs with 32 Front/36 Rear DT Comp Spokes and Shimano/PRO R-50 rims

 

I all cases, the hubs have lasted well and the PRO R-50 rims, while a little heavier, haven't suffered the fatigue failure the Mavic rims did. The 36 spoke rear on the later set was to mitigate the rim fatigue issue further. I've had a few spoke failures too.

 

This time round I thought I might consider thinking out of the box a bit more. Questions I'm asking are:

1. Are deeper rim sections worth it (a deeper rim by virtue of its greater vertical stiffness, there is less vertical flexing of the rim and therefore lower fatigue magnitude in the eyelet are and spoke) - thinking a DT 585 or mavic CXP or similar (open to suggestions).

2. If I went to a deeper section, the ride would be a little harsher. I could consider going to a slightly thinner centre section on the spoke e.g. an Alpina Ø1.7mm vs the DT which is Ø1.8. This would increase the compliance a bit and again reduce fatigue at the eyelet and J bend, but sacrifice a little lateral stability/stiffness.

3. Do I go for straigthpull spokes which almost completely eliminates spoke head failure

4. What sort of life have people had out hubs with cartridge bearing (if you look after a DA hub, I guess you could get 30-50k km out of it, but when its bearing are done, you throw away and they are expensive)

5. Since it is training wheel - should I fit a Dynamo Hub (see here)

 

I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts and what products they recommend and why.....

[pista]

HED 32 hole Belgium C2+ rims with 25mm tyres.

 

Hope hubs.

[T-Bob]

H Plus Sons Archetype on AMC hubs, tubeless. Great stiff rims, super smooth (and reliable hubs) and pick your spokes as you wish. My set did the Roubaix sportive without even flinching. 

[greatwhite]

H Plus Sons Archetype on AMC hubs, tubeless. Great stiff rims, super smooth (and reliable hubs) and pick your spokes as you wish. My set did the Roubaix sportive without even flinching.

 

Never heard of H Plus Sons Archetype till now, but a Google search suggests it is quote similar to the Mavic CXP rims. What was considered a deep section aero wheel 20years ago... Worth keeping in mind

 

Not sure about the am classic hubs. I recall seeing many reports on the web with rear hub failure

 

How many km have you done on this wheels?

[greatwhite]

HED 32 hole Belgium C2+ rims with 25mm tyres.

 

Hope hubs.

HED rims - look nice, have a massive price though, it seems (can't find locally on the web, but internationally well over $100/rim)

 

Hope hubs - knew someone would suggest them ☺

[David Marshall]

Just looking at your points raised here is my 2c.

 

1) A deeper rim will build a stronger wheel.  Something like the CXP 33 or Velocity Fusion - unfortunately neither are available locally.  You can get the Alex 28 or the DT with a 28mm section.  Going above that will become very heavy

2) You are not going to feel the effect of the different spoke thicknesses.  These days a carbon fork will absorb anything that you used to feel on a steel frame.

3) Do not under any circumstances go for straight pull spokes. The disadvantages far outweigh any benefits.  Properly built wheels with J bend DB spokes is the way to go.

4) I would only use cartridge bearing hubs.  For a training wheel get something with a bit of a "meaty" bearing. (DT Swiss, Campagnolo).  Cup and cone hubs are not supported by the agents in this country.  Cartridge bearings are not as efficient as angular contact cup and cone bearings but much easier to maintain.

[bikebloke]

campagnolo vento

[T-Bob]

Never heard of H Plus Sons Archetype till now, but a Google search suggests it is quote similar to the Mavic CXP rims. What was considered a deep section aero wheel 20years ago... Worth keeping in mind

 

Not sure about the am classic hubs. I recall seeing many reports on the web with rear hub failure

 

How many km have you done on this wheels?

 

Sorry I didn't relies you were looking for specific deep section training wheels. I thought you were looking for any sort of great training wheels which those are. Bullet proof, good width, ride very well. 

 

Depends what AMC hubs you're on about (older victory hubs were average) but the Aero hubs and the micro fronts are one of the fastest rolling hubs I've had and hassle free. Stick your bike on a workshop stand and spin the wheel and that will keep going for well over 5 minutes. 

 

As for reliability I can only speak for the sets I've had (2 x sets of Aero 420's, 1 set Victory's and a set of MTB hubs laced into Easton Arcs) all have been flawless. The victory hubs (2015) were okay, just a bit more agricultural than the others. Probably wouldn't have them again. Km wise on my H's? Don't know exactly but it's a lot and had very little maintenance. 

 

But heading back to your original post. The ultimate, ultimate training wheels would be a second set of your race wheels surely (only slightly heavier so you tick off the ol' train heavy, race light scenario). So 2 x set of firecrests. Done!

 

 

 

 

[JA-Q001]

My training wheels are heavy and bomb proof.

 

Using wide Giant rims, meant for hybrids/commuters, straight guage DT swiss spokes and semi cheap novatec hubs.

 

The rims are also a bit wider, so 25mm tyres fit nicely. Its not an aero wheelset, its meant to make my ride feel harder, but I can hit a pothole and the rims dont dent. The hubs are also about 10 years old now and still with origional bearings.

[the nerd]

Just looking at your points raised here is my 2c.

 

1) A deeper rim will build a stronger wheel.  Something like the CXP 33 or Velocity Fusion - unfortunately neither are available locally.  You can get the Alex 28 or the DT with a 28mm section.  Going above that will become very heavy

2) You are not going to feel the effect of the different spoke thicknesses.  These days a carbon fork will absorb anything that you used to feel on a steel frame.

3) Do not under any circumstances go for straight pull spokes. The disadvantages far outweigh any benefits.  Properly built wheels with J bend DB spokes is the way to go.

4) I would only use cartridge bearing hubs.  For a training wheel get something with a bit of a "meaty" bearing. (DT Swiss, Campagnolo).  Cup and cone hubs are not supported by the agents in this country.  Cartridge bearings are not as efficient as angular contact cup and cone bearings but much easier to maintain.

 

I think you may be able to find Velocity's... I know Grant was able to get some Duallys at a point so someone must know something!! 

[greatwhite]

Just looking at your points raised here is my 2c.

 

1) A deeper rim will build a stronger wheel.  Something like the CXP 33 or Velocity Fusion - unfortunately neither are available locally.  You can get the Alex 28 or the DT with a 28mm section.  Going above that will become very heavy

2) You are not going to feel the effect of the different spoke thicknesses.  These days a carbon fork will absorb anything that you used to feel on a steel frame.

3) Do not under any circumstances go for straight pull spokes. The disadvantages far outweigh any benefits.  Properly built wheels with J bend DB spokes is the way to go.

4) I would only use cartridge bearing hubs.  For a training wheel get something with a bit of a "meaty" bearing. (DT Swiss, Campagnolo).  Cup and cone hubs are not supported by the agents in this country.  Cartridge bearings are not as efficient as angular contact cup and cone bearings but much easier to maintain.

I think we are on the same page with respect everything except the straight pull spokes. Apart from availability, what are the issues?

[greatwhite]

Sorry I didn't relies you were looking for specific deep section training wheels. I thought you were looking for any sort of great training wheels which those are. Bullet proof, good width, ride very well. 

 

Depends what AMC hubs you're on about (older victory hubs were average) but the Aero hubs and the micro fronts are one of the fastest rolling hubs I've had and hassle free. Stick your bike on a workshop stand and spin the wheel and that will keep going for well over 5 minutes. 

 

As for reliability I can only speak for the sets I've had (2 x sets of Aero 420's, 1 set Victory's and a set of MTB hubs laced into Easton Arcs) all have been flawless. The victory hubs (2015) were okay, just a bit more agricultural than the others. Probably wouldn't have them again. Km wise on my H's? Don't know exactly but it's a lot and had very little maintenance. 

 

But heading back to your original post. The ultimate, ultimate training wheels would be a second set of your race wheels surely (only slightly heavier so you tick off the ol' train heavy, race light scenario). So 2 x set of firecrests. Done!

 

 

 

 

Your original assumption is correct. My comment re deep sections was simply a reflection on what was considered 'aero' 20 years ago. I'm not actually looking for a proper deep section wheel to train on - the rim depth is just for durability. That and the Firecrests are many times what I want to spend.....

[Eugene]

You guys spend too much time and money on building fancy wheels just for training.

 

I've had the same standard A-Class (Alex) wheelset for years, never had to be trued and bearings are still the smoothest I've ever had.

 

I am 27kg north of 70kg

[V12man]

I have a set of 36 spoke open pros built on shimano 600 hubs - never been trued after more than 15 years - probably over 50k km on them.

 

For a small guy like me they are bulletproof

[greatwhite]

You guys spend too much time and money on building fancy wheels just for training.

I've had the same standard A-Class (Alex) wheelset for years, never had to be trued and bearings are still the smoothest I've ever had.

I am 27kg north of 70kg

Maybe you are right, but ride more/harder, they will break eventually.

 

I can tell you from hard experience that wheels don't last with me. I've had rims and spokes fatigue and fail plenty. Had cup and cone bearings fail (Shimano 600/ultegra and plenty of cheaper hubs). On the old screw on gear hubs, the hub shafts would break. To be fair, all bike parts are a problem for me, I've broken bars, stems, pedal shafts and just for good measure, 5 frames. Mostly fatigue related. Having given you that background, you can see why I take selection of parts seriously.

[David Marshall]

I think we are on the same page with respect everything except the straight pull spokes. Apart from availability, what are the issues?

The heads do break off, they are difficult to obtain, you are forced into the spoke pattern that your hub designer wants, if the nipples start to seize the whole spoke rotates and on some hubs it is a feat to get a replacement spoke in.  

 

J bend, stress relieved, improved spoke line on the elbow and spoke washers - the way to go.  If I build a wheel with 32 spoke 3 cross DB J bend spokes I give a spoke warrantee for the life of the rim or hub.