cleats for downhill?

[Peach.]

Keep on flats,

If you are loosing your pedals on rough stuff it could be either,

- Rebound too Slow, result in you being deep in your travel and you shock doesn't take the hits.

- Rebound too Fast, Kicks the bike away from your feet, you will also loose traction on rough flat corners.

- Stiff ankles, keep you calve muscles active, keep working the bike.

 

Clips really help on very peddly stuff and when you have to crank it over rough stuff.

 

I ride clips for Enduro and flats for DH

[V12man]

Thanks for the explanation, but it takes the same amount of energy (kilojoules) to pedal to the top.

Only academically for the vertical lift... you forget that efficiency is also a factor.. Duane is correct - if flats were faster they would be ridden by the fastest guys... and they are not....

 

You won't catch me riding flats in a xc race... I do have a set on my play bike but they come off when serious pedalling becomes a factor...

[cdevil]

Damn, 12 posts deep and not a single "OMFG FLAT PEDALS CLIMB JUST AS GOOD AND BETTER THAN CLIPLESS!!!! REEEEE"

 

I'm impressed.

 

 

Only academically for the vertical lift... you forget that efficiency is also a factor.. Duane is correct - if flats were faster they would be ridden by the fastest guys... and they are not....

 

You won't catch me riding flats in a xc race... I do have a set on my play bike but they come off when serious pedalling becomes a factor...

 

Read the original post, I only said that both will result in exactly the same amount of energy being used to pedal to the top.

 

With regards to which one is faster, have a look at Sam Hill's race wins over the years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Hill_(cyclist)#Results

 

Quite impressive for someone riding on flats which according to you is slower than clipless.

[Duane_Bosch]

 

With regards to which one is faster, have a look at Sam Hill's race wins over the years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Hill_(cyclist)#Results

 

Quite impressive for someone riding on flats which according to you is slower than clipless.

That's evidence of Sam Hill's exceptional ability rather than the efficiency of flats. If you want to prove your point your sample should be the results of ALL riders at WC level. If you do that the results are skewed heavily in favor of clips.

 

The fact is the fast guys run clips because they are faster.

[V12man]

Read the original post, I only said that both will result in exactly the same amount of energy being used to pedal to the top.

 

With regards to which one is faster, have a look at Sam Hill's race wins over the years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Hill_(cyclist)#Results

 

Quite impressive for someone riding on flats which according to you is slower than clipless.

"exactly the same amount of energy" - rubbish - your statement is fine if you are a theoretical phycicist - but this is the real world of organic machines, and efficiency plays a huge role - so energy used = work done * efficiency level

 

Clipless pedals are hugely more efficient than flats on uphils AND where pedalling is required for a human machine.

 

Sam hill may be fast downhill using flats - please compare it to Sam Hill's races where he uses clipless pedals.... oh wait.... no evidence.....

 

Most world class downhillers use clipless pedals these days.... (probably a reason there somewhere...) just like they will soon all be using 29er DH bikes.... see this past weekends results....

 

All the above said - I think people can benefit from using flats sometimes (why else would I have a set? ) it helps highlight poor technique in technical sections much more easily than clipless pedals - and if the rider corrects that, then by implication that will also benefit them when they ride with clipless pedals. The one thing I don't believe riding flats does is improve pedaling technique for clipless....

[cdevil]

"exactly the same amount of energy" - rubbish - your statement is fine if you are a theoretical phycicist - but this is the real world of organic machines, and efficiency plays a huge role - so energy used = work done * efficiency level

 

Clipless pedals are hugely more efficient than flats on uphils AND where pedalling is required for a human machine.

 

Read a couple of scientific studies:

 

http://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PDF/PowerForce/Mornieux___Stapelfeldt_Artikel_Feedback_Pedalkraefte_2008.pdf

 

Abstract:

 

The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists © and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev•min–1 and 60% of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86% for C and 57% NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9% and 3.3% reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.

 

http://www.fitworkscycling.com/uploads/4/5/3/8/4538224/pedalingtechnique.pdf

 

"...while torque during the upstroke did reduce the total positive work required during the downstroke, it did not contribute significantly to the external work done because 98.6% and 96.3% of the total work done at the low and high workloads, respectively, was done during the downstroke."

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/21157829_Physiological_and_biochemical_factors_associated_with_elite_endurance_cycling_performance

 

 

Then why do most people still ride clips? It's more convenient being attached to the bike, feet stay locked in position and can't slip off. Are clips more efficient than flats? No

[V12man]

Read a couple of scientific studies:

 

http://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PDF/PowerForce/Mornieux___Stapelfeldt_Artikel_Feedback_Pedalkraefte_2008.pdf

 

Abstract:

 

The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists © and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev•min–1 and 60% of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86% for C and 57% NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9% and 3.3% reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.

 

http://www.fitworkscycling.com/uploads/4/5/3/8/4538224/pedalingtechnique.pdf

 

"...while torque during the upstroke did reduce the total positive work required during the downstroke, it did not contribute significantly to the external work done because 98.6% and 96.3% of the total work done at the low and high workloads, respectively, was done during the downstroke."

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/21157829_Physiological_and_biochemical_factors_associated_with_elite_endurance_cycling_performance

 

 

Then why do most people still ride clips? It's more convenient being attached to the bike, feet stay locked in position and can't slip off. Are clips more efficient than flats? No

Unfortunately you didn't read those studies properly.... you cannot test efficiency at 60% of maximal O2 consumption and assume that it has any relationship to anything approaching race efforts... so effectively they only proved they could not show any difference at near idling efforts.... THATS TOTALLY MEANINGLESS..... - do it again 20% over anaerobic threshold and see what happens - this is where real racing happens....

 

Get that same study done properly to show efficiency over rough conditions at RACE EFFORTS and you will see a difference.... but it is hard to do in a lab... possible but not easy to replicate offroad conditions.....

[Odinson]

Unfortunately you didn't read those studies properly.... you cannot test efficiency at 60% of maximal O2 consumption and assume that it has any relationship to anything approaching race efforts... so effectively they only proved they could not show any difference at near idling efforts.... THATS TOTALLY MEANINGLESS..... - do it again 20% over anaerobic threshold and see what happens - this is where real racing happens....

 

Get that same study done properly to show efficiency over rough conditions at RACE EFFORTS and you will see a difference.... but it is hard to do in a lab... possible but not easy to replicate offroad conditions.....

 

But are all people who ride clips riding at race speeds all the time? No.

 

Perhaps clipless may have a slight efficiency advantage at race speeds, but for Average Joe doing a weekend trail ride, there will be little efficiency advantage by riding clipless.

 

It'll come down to rider preference.

[popcorn_skollie]

Science! 

[cdevil]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/21157829_Physiological_and_biochemical_factors_associated_with_elite_endurance_cycling_performance

 

Abstract:

 

In this study we evaluated the physiological and biomechanical responses of 'elite-national class' (i.e., group 1; N = 9) and 'good-state class' (i.e., group 2; N = 6) cyclists while they simulated a 40 km time-trial in the laboratory by cycling on an ergometer for 1 h at their highest power output. Actual road racing 40 km time-trial performance was highly correlated with average absolute power during the 1 h laboratory performance test (r = -0.88; P < 0.001). In turn, 1 h power output was related to each cyclists' V̇O2 at the blood lactate threshold (r = 0.93; P < 0.001). Group 1 was not different from group 2 regarding V̇O(2max) (approximately 70 ml·kg-1·min-1 and 5.01 l·min-1) or lean body weight. However, group 1 bicycled 40 km on the road 10% faster than group 2 (P < 0.05; 54 vs 60 min). Additionally, group 1 was able to generate 11% more power during the 1 h performance test than group 2 (P < 0.05), and they averaged 90 ± 1% V̇O(2max) compared with 86 ± 2% V̇O(2max) in group 2 (P = 0.06). The higher performance power output of group 1 was produced primarily by generating higher peak torques about the center of the crank by applying larger vertical forces to the crank arm during the cycling downstroke. Compared with group 2, group 1 also produced higher peak torques and vertical forces during the downstroke even when cycling at the same absolute work rate as group 2. Factors possibly contributing to the ability of group 1 to produce higher 'downstroke power' are a greater percentage of Type I muscle fibers (P < 0.05) and a 23% greater (P < 0.05) muscle capillary density compared with group 2. We have also observed a strong relationship between years of endurance training and percent Type I muscle fibers (r = 0.75; P < 0.001). It appears that 'elite-national class' cyclists have the ability to generate higher 'downstroke power', possibly as a result of muscular adaptations stimulated by more years of endurance training.

 

 

It is clear that the work gets done on the downstroke.

 

"However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency."

 

"...while torque during the upstroke did reduce the total positive work required during the downstroke, it did not contribute significantly to the external work done because 98.6% and 96.3% of the total work done at the low and high workloads, respectively, was done during the downstroke."

[V12man]

But are all people who ride clips riding at race speeds all the time? No.

 

Perhaps clipless may have a slight efficiency advantage at race speeds, but for Average Joe doing a weekend trail ride, there will be little efficiency advantage by riding clipless.

 

It'll come down to rider preference.

The way weekend riders huff and puff on the spruit, I doubt they are at 60%.... more like 95%... every day is race day on the spruit...

[cdevil]

"exactly the same amount of energy" - rubbish - your statement is fine if you are a theoretical phycicist - but this is the real world of organic machines, and efficiency plays a huge role - so energy used = work done * efficiency level

 

You had me at "the real world of organic machines" 

 

Clipless pedals are hugely more efficient than flats on uphils AND where pedalling is required for a human machine.

 

Any studies to back up these claims?

Edited May 16, 2017 by Carel de Villiers

[nox1111]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/330f.gif

[V12man]

You had me at "the real world of organic machines" 

 

 

Any studies to back up these claims?

You can DIY your own study... put a power meter on your bike and max out the same steep technical hill segment several times -  with flats and once with clipless - the numbers don't lie, especially when you need to apply more force than gravity will supply using your bodyweight - you need a brace to deliver the torque required - cleats give you this far more than pulling on your handlebars does.

 

 

I am sure those studies do exist - ping TheDoctor and ask Jeroen.... he will know off the top of his head of an appropriate one that will satisfy you (and me - given he and I had the same instructor in reading scientific studies... about 15 years apart)

[cdevil]

I am sure those studies do exist - ping TheDoctor and ask Jeroen.... he will know off the top of his head of an appropriate one that will satisfy you (and me - given he and I had the same instructor in reading scientific studies... about 15 years apart)

 

I tried searching but didn't find much. If you have some links could you please post them?

[Odinson]

You can DIY your own study... put a power meter on your bike and max out the same steep technical hill segment several times -  with flats and once with clipless - the numbers don't lie, especially when you need to apply more force than gravity will supply using your bodyweight - you need a brace to deliver the torque required - cleats give you this far more than pulling on your handlebars does.

 

 

I am sure those studies do exist - ping TheDoctor and ask Jeroen.... he will know off the top of his head of an appropriate one that will satisfy you (and me - given he and I had the same instructor in reading scientific studies... about 15 years apart)

 

I'm sorry, but I've never felt myself pulling on the pedals when you're riding a steep incline. You're always powering down with the one leg and the other leg simply rotates in-sync.