The Veganism Thread

[DJR]

.................if you were to switch places with a farmed animal, would you want someone to speak up on your behalf before being sent to the killing floor? ..............

I think the incorrect assumption that many, who lean towards veganism for moral or emotional reasons and those who fight for animal rights, make, is that all animals think, feel and reason just like humans, that they are conscious beings and in the same sense as us, are capable of deductive thought and can rationalize the way we do. 

 

There is a strong argument for higher thought and self awareness in the case of some species, the higher primates, dolphins, even elephants, but for most species science is pretty clear that they are incapable of that.

 

Therefore, the argument that we, as humans, should put ourselves in the shoes, so to speak, of domestic animals, in order to understand how they feel, is not a logical one. It is still possible to do, of course, because of our capacity for theoretical thinking, but the deductions made, will not be valid.

 

Most, including farmed animals, can of course feel things like pain and fear, and for that reason alone, we should handle them with great care.

 

That said, from a moral perspective, it is still a good exercise, if for no other reason than that it will encourage us to treat animals with compassion. Some will come to the conclusion that the right path for them is to become vegan, others vegetarians, many will decide to kill their farmed animals with greater care to reduce suffering as much as possible.

 

(Enough Friday philosophy!) 

[Eldron]

I think the incorrect assumption that many, who lean towards veganism for moral or emotional reasons and those who fight for animal rights, make, is that all animals think, feel and reason just like humans, that they are conscious beings and in the same sense as us, are capable of deductive thought and can rationalize the way we do.

 

There is a strong argument for higher thought and self awareness in the case of some species, the higher primates, dolphins, even elephants, but for most species science is pretty clear that they are incapable of that.

 

Therefore, the argument that we, as humans, should put ourselves in the shoes, so to speak, of domestic animals, in order to understand how they feel, is not a logical one. It is still possible to do, of course, because of our capacity for theoretical thinking, but the deductions made, will not be valid.

 

Most, including farmed animals, can of course feel things like pain and fear, and for that reason alone, we should handle them with great care.

 

That said, from a moral perspective, it is still a good exercise, if for no other reason than that it will encourage us to treat animals with compassion. Some will come to the conclusion that the right path for them is to become vegan, others vegetarians, many will decide to kill their farmed animals with greater care to reduce suffering as much as possible.

 

(Enough Friday philosophy!)

And the Friday triple Bells award goes to DJR!

 

A little compassion and empathy would go a long way to making the world (and specifically South Africa) a much better place.

[Chris_]

Don’t assume the effort applied in a moderately controlled activity. Believe me, when I rock up at the start line, I’m more motivated than you to win. I’m rarely in any sort of “comfort zone”. The difference (not comparing to you) is that once I’m across the finish line I don’t get on the rollers to cool down and then go for a recovery nap. Friends, Family, Health, Wealth.....I try my best to treat them “equally” but with a passion on 100.

 

Kind of my point. If you're going to do something - give it your best, and full-on. If you want to ride your bike, ride it f***ing well. If you want to be with your family/friends/dogs/shopping/holidaying/eating/whatever - BE there, and do it with your full 100% self. 

 

I still think being balanced and doing everything in moderation is a cop-out. Its 100% un-quantifiable and certainly is not a carbon copy translation between you, me or anyone else. If we both arrive on the start line and I'm talking about my various duties and how thinly spread I am its because I'm looking for excuses to make myself be happier about the mediocre(insert any word) performance I'm about to deliver compared to many other people with whom I have zero in common with. Don't tell me about your balance, tell me you have 30 mins every 2 days to train and you're going to still go flat-out. Own your position at the back of the race, because when we both finish - you wherever, and me at the back, I'm still going to be the one throwing up in the corner because I gave it my full effort, and I should be proud because my life has NO balance and I'm still turning up.

 

(Sorry, I've now gone waaay off tangent, none of this is directed at you personally obv)

[Odinson]

I think the incorrect assumption that many, who lean towards veganism for moral or emotional reasons and those who fight for animal rights, make, is that all animals think, feel and reason just like humans, that they are conscious beings and in the same sense as us, are capable of deductive thought and can rationalize the way we do. 

 

There is a strong argument for higher thought and self awareness in the case of some species, the higher primates, dolphins, even elephants, but for most species science is pretty clear that they are incapable of that.

 

Therefore, the argument that we, as humans, should put ourselves in the shoes, so to speak, of domestic animals, in order to understand how they feel, is not a logical one. It is still possible to do, of course, because of our capacity for theoretical thinking, but the deductions made, will not be valid.

 

Most, including farmed animals, can of course feel things like pain and fear, and for that reason alone, we should handle them with great care.

 

That said, from a moral perspective, it is still a good exercise, if for no other reason than that it will encourage us to treat animals with compassion. Some will come to the conclusion that the right path for them is to become vegan, others vegetarians, many will decide to kill their farmed animals with greater care to reduce suffering as much as possible.

 

(Enough Friday philosophy!) 

 

I don't think there is a large group of people who believe that animals have the same cognitive abilities as humans. However, to deny basic things such as the ability to feel pain, compassion, to want to associate with their own kind, care for their young, etc. is intellectually dishonest. 

 

I also don't believe that non-human animal's capacity for cognition and reason is a measuring stick for whether or not we should exploit and kill them. I like to think of it in the human context too. We don't 'humanely' kill the profoundly mentally handicapped, because we understand that even despite their lack of ability for cognition or reason, we have a moral obligation to allow them their life and dignity. Same goes for animals. Their capacity for cognition does not bestow us with the right to exploit them. I can't help but see comparisons with your argument and those oft proposed by eugenicists.

 

The point I was trying to make is whether a person would be willing to endure the suffering that an exploited animal is put through. If you would not want to endure the same fate, what gives you the moral justification to put a defenseless animal in that position? 

 

Why choose to have an animal suffer, despite the intensity or duration, when one can choose not to? 

[Chris_]

https://time.com/5669628/vegetarians-vegans-stroke-study/?utm_source=emailshare&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email-share-article&utm_content=20190906

 

An 18 year study detailing stroke and heart disease in meat vs vegetarian/vegan diets.

 

Apparently the results have come up before. Meat eaters have less chance of stroke, veg eaters have less chance of heart disease. Because of the reduced cholesterol in veg eaters (thus protecting from heart disease) it actually increases the likelihood of a stroke. Makes sense when its put plainly like that I suppose.

 

The number of occurrences are not directly comparable at almost 3 to 1, but still interesting.

[Chris_]

Kroger - the US's largest 'traditional' grocer with just over 3000 stores is also rolling out store-brand plant-based 'meatless' alternatives. One - they don't want to get left behind, two - they need to reinvigorate their brand.

 

It keeps growing...

[Eldron]

Yup. Do your research and make sure you're getting a full spread of vitamins and minerals if you're cutting down/cutting out meat.

 

That is true for any radical change in diet.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Eldron

[ahmedbadat]

the mother child nutrition posts got me thinking, and this is a honest question, is breast milk allowed?

Edited September 6, 2019 by ahmedbadat

[Odinson]

https://time.com/5669628/vegetarians-vegans-stroke-study/?utm_source=emailshare&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email-share-article&utm_content=20190906

 

An 18 year study detailing stroke and heart disease in meat vs vegetarian/vegan diets.

 

Apparently the results have come up before. Meat eaters have less chance of stroke, veg eaters have less chance of heart disease. Because of the reduced cholesterol in veg eaters (thus protecting from heart disease) it actually increases the likelihood of a stroke. Makes sense when its put plainly like that I suppose.

 

The number of occurrences are not directly comparable at almost 3 to 1, but still interesting.

 

To add some context, there are very, very few vegans in the EPIC-Oxford cohort. So, for this study they chucked the vegans in with the vegetarians. So, you can't really tease out the stroke risk for vegans, 'cause the vegetarians were eating much higher levels of cholesterol, saturated fat (up to 10% of calories for sat. fat) and lower amounts of fiber (~22g per day). But yeah, it's still interesting to see how these things play out. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2A8nNgpW-G/

[Odinson]

the mother child nutrition posts got me thinking, and this is a honest question, is breast milk allowed?

 

Breast milk from whom? 

 

If you're asking about mom feeding her baby, of course! That's the most natural thing on earth. 

 

But if you want to drink the breast milk from a cow, goat, dog, rat, then no. 

[Odinson]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/06/vegans-why-wont-they-leave-us-alone-to-consume-the-flesh-of-tortured-animals-in-peace?CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1567754702

[Odinson]

Good watch on the vegetarian stroke study: 

 

https://youtu.be/LFAOdAmGoho

[DJR]

He said she said he said she said he said she said she said he said she said he said she .........

[Odinson]

He said she said he said she said he said she said she said he said she said he said she .........

 

"Doubt is our product..."

[DJR]

"Doubt is our product..."

Could also have said: Butter, margarine, butter, margarine, butter, margarine, butter, margarine.......

[WrightJnr]

I’m hungry for some more meaty chitchat here on this thread. It’s almost Friday and I don’t feel like watering the plants tomorrow.