The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

Its actually not anymore. I looked this up a while ago because I also remember the US was the most obese and SA was 2nd or 3rd. Or so I thought.

 

Turns out there are a bunch of Pacific islands that are top of the pops. US is around 20th, SA around 40th.

 

I was very surprised.

 

The Pacific Island nations and a bunch of the countries around the Arabian peninsula seem to be topping the ranks in terms of obesity.

[Odinson]

IMG_20190205_102145_663.jpg

 

This morning's brunch.

Tofu scramble, roast potato (could've done without that), roasted mushroom and cocktail tomatoes and avo with a vegan mayo

 

So good.

 

[Uni]

Hmmm, if you drool on my food and I eat it, is it still vegan? hahaa

[Odinson]

Hmmm, if you drool on my food and I eat it, is it still vegan? hahaa

 

Yip, but I'd not-so-subtly judge your hygiene standards. 

[Edition 507]

It can be argued that factory farming is a direct result of our diet choice. More demand for meat = more intensive processes to meet demand. 

 

Look at this progression in the demand for meat: 

 

Capture.PNG

 

A fundamental issue is that we consider ourselves distinct from the rest of the natural world. We can't live on a dead planet. So, we need to be nice to ourselves, the planet and the animals.

 

I don't think diet choice is the fundamental cause of the increased meat consumption. I think it is more subtle than a conscious bias towards meat consumption. It does not say which country this demand for meat was measured, but let's say it was the USA. Firstly, per capita income in America has risen tremendously since the 60's. So more money to spend on meat. Secondly, the availability of food has just become overwhelming over this time period as well.  Fast Food and Take Outs are just everywhere, you can eat 24x7 if you want to, hence the severe obesity problem in America. So combine increased affluence and the availability of food and basically Americans are simply just eating themselves to death.

Anyway, if you take 40kg of meat per person per year it works out to be roughly 100g a day. 100g of protein per day is pretty close to Recommended Daily Allowance for most people, so it is certainly not excessive.

In 1960 there were about 3 billion people on our planet and in 2013 there were 7 billion.

Considering increased affluence, increased overall food consumption and the human population explosion over the past decades, it is no wonder that there is a increased demand for meat, but this is true for all other foodstuffs as well, a prime example being palm oil.

All this results in the catastrophic destruction of our planets natural resources.

[Odinson]

I don't think diet choice is the fundamental cause of the increased meat consumption. I think it is more subtle than a conscious bias towards meat consumption.

 

I can agree with you that environment plays a big role in influencing people's decision to eat animal flesh.  

 

It does not say which country this demand for meat was measured, but let's say it was the USA. Firstly, per capita income in America has risen tremendously since the 60's. So more money to spend on meat. Secondly, the availability of food has just become overwhelming over this time period as well.  Fast Food and Take Outs are just everywhere, you can eat 24x7 if you want to, hence the severe obesity problem in America. So combine increased affluence and the availability of food and basically Americans are simply just eating themselves to death.

 

This data is for worldwide consumption. So, it'll include low and high consumption countries. Interestingly enough, in 2014 SA per capita consumption was 65kg. Much higher than the global average. 

 

Anyway, if you take 40kg of meat per person per year it works out to be roughly 100g a day. 100g of protein per day is pretty close to Recommended Daily Allowance for most people, so it is certainly not excessive.

 

100g of animal flesh ≠ 100g protein. 

 

In 1960 there were about 3 billion people on our planet and in 2013 there were 7 billion.

Considering increased affluence, increased overall food consumption and the human population explosion over the past decades, it is no wonder that there is a increased demand for meat, but this is true for all other foodstuffs as well, a prime example being palm oil.

All this results in the catastrophic destruction of our planets natural resources.

 

So, if we know that animal agriculture is by far the most destructive, why do you rally against veganism? 

[Edition 507]

I think you've left out a few elements to make this beautifully linear progression though.

 

Are you referencing food production as meat or in general crops? We've seen that a lot of general food production is used to keep meat production afloat. So the latter seems to exponentially magnify the former(?).

 

ITO meat the fact that we celebrate and encourage its consumption only fulfils this push. If we made it less aspirational this would then exponentially reduce the growth rate?

 

I also can't help but think capitalism, which neither animal nor planet care for has made this process a lot more cutthroat than it needs to be. GMO's and pesticides are a results of this endless pursuit of monetary efficiency. It also speaks to your final line of being nice to (*poor) humans. We've made that decision long long ago...

 

I'm not convinced that being vegan is any way more 'green' that meat eaters. The low calorie content of vegan food necessitates them to eat far more of it than regular meat eaters. This means far more of their foodstuffs need to be grown. So vegans need many more extra fields to grow their crops. On the other hand, these extra fields could be used to raise cows, a far more efficient source of calories, not to mention the benefits of the other by-products. 

 

For the past 4 decades or so a number of major diseases have been squarely attributed to meat and dairy product consumption. This has been found to be not true, hence Prof. Noakes' diet, Banting and even the new carnivore diet. I can't see how meat has been made aspirational, on the contrary, the health industry has demonized meat.

 

Of course corporate greed does encourage efficiency to a degree, but I would suggest that globalism is by far a bigger factor at play. Efficiency is not going to drive demand whereas the more than doubling of the human population in the past 5 decades certainly will.

[Odinson]

I'm not convinced that being vegan is any way more 'green' that meat eaters. The low calorie content of vegan food necessitates them to eat far more of it than regular meat eaters. This means far more of their foodstuffs need to be grown. So vegans need many more extra fields to grow their crops. On the other hand, these extra fields could be used to raise cows, a far more efficient source of calories, not to mention the benefits of the other by-products. 

 

For the past 4 decades or so a number of major diseases have been squarely attributed to meat and dairy product consumption. This has been found to be not true, hence Prof. Noakes' diet, Banting and even the new carnivore diet. I can't see how meat has been made aspirational, on the contrary, the health industry has demonized meat.

 

Of course corporate greed does encourage efficiency to a degree, but I would suggest that globalism is by far a bigger factor at play. Efficiency is not going to drive demand whereas the more than doubling of the human population in the past 5 decades certainly will.

 

For the second time, wow! Perhaps read through this thread and you'll see why you're wrong on basically all of the above. 

[GrahamS2]

I'm not convinced that being vegan is any way more 'green' that meat eaters. The low calorie content of vegan food necessitates them to eat far more of it than regular meat eaters. This means far more of their foodstuffs need to be grown. So vegans need many more extra fields to grow their crops. On the other hand, these extra fields could be used to raise cows, a far more efficient source of calories, not to mention the benefits of the other by-products. 

 

Not agreeing with your argument, but a UN study has shown that the impact of animal farming on crop production is not quite as much as previously estimated. Most animal feed is not fit for human consumption and would have been crop by-product anyway

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

Edited February 6, 2019 by GrahamS2

[Pants Boy]

I've got a bit of a flyer of a question here - hopefully you'll indulge my research a bit.

 

How does your typical weekly veggie shopping trip look like? Ie what do you buy for a week's worth of cooking?

 

(By the royal 'you' I'm asking veganists in general)

[Odinson]

I've got a bit of a flyer of a question here - hopefully you'll indulge my research a bit.

 

How does your typical weekly veggie shopping trip look like? Ie what do you buy for a week's worth of cooking?

 

(By the royal 'you' I'm asking veganists in general)

 

Off the top of my head: 

 

1. Legumes - some dry, some tinned. Probably about 6-7 tins. 
2. Bag of potatoes (but this lasts about 2-3 weeks); 
3. 3-4 sweet potatoes; 
4. 1-2 heads of broccoli; 
5. 1 bag of brussel sprouts;
6. 2 bags of spinach; 
7. Assortment of grains (rice, soy, millet, oats, etc.) (probably around 500g - 1kg depending on the meals for the week)
8. 1-2 butternuts or other pumpkin type veggies, depending on size;
9. Bush of kale (if in season);
10. Assortment of fruit - some fresh, some frozen;
11. Brinjal or two;  
12. Random veggies used to flavour meals - tomatoes, garlic, onions, etc. 

Edit: my wife and I rarely do the mock meats. However, for this week we did buy some seitan - looks pretty good, so will b trying that tomorrow. 

 

It obviously varies depending on what's planned for the week, but that's about it for my wife and I. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Odinson

[Edition 507]

 

I don't think diet choice is the fundamental cause of the increased meat consumption. I think it is more subtle than a conscious bias towards meat consumption.

 

I can agree with you that environment plays a big role in influencing people's decision to eat animal flesh.  

 

It does not say which country this demand for meat was measured, but let's say it was the USA. Firstly, per capita income in America has risen tremendously since the 60's. So more money to spend on meat. Secondly, the availability of food has just become overwhelming over this time period as well.  Fast Food and Take Outs are just everywhere, you can eat 24x7 if you want to, hence the severe obesity problem in America. So combine increased affluence and the availability of food and basically Americans are simply just eating themselves to death.

 

This data is for worldwide consumption. So, it'll include low and high consumption countries. Interestingly enough, in 2014 SA per capita consumption was 65kg. Much higher than the global average. 

 

Anyway, if you take 40kg of meat per person per year it works out to be roughly 100g a day. 100g of protein per day is pretty close to Recommended Daily Allowance for most people, so it is certainly not excessive.

 

100g of animal flesh ≠ 100g protein. 

 

In 1960 there were about 3 billion people on our planet and in 2013 there were 7 billion.

Considering increased affluence, increased overall food consumption and the human population explosion over the past decades, it is no wonder that there is a increased demand for meat, but this is true for all other foodstuffs as well, a prime example being palm oil.

All this results in the catastrophic destruction of our planets natural resources.

 

So, if we know that animal agriculture is by far the most destructive (this is not what I said), why do you rally against veganism? 

 

I'm rallying against the untruths of veganism.

 

1. It is not unethical to eat meat.

2. Veganism is not healthy.

3. Veganism is not better for the environment.

 

These are the three pillars supporting the vegan argument. They are myths.

 

My basic argument is that the massive human population explosion is the root cause of all the problems we are facing today, and not the fact that we eat meat.

[Edition 507]

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

 

Thanks GrahamS2, this pretty much supports what I have been saying.

[Chris_]

I'm not convinced that being vegan is any way more 'green' that meat eaters. The low calorie content of vegan food necessitates them to eat far more of it than regular meat eaters. This means far more of their foodstuffs need to be grown. So vegans need many more extra fields to grow their crops. On the other hand, these extra fields could be used to raise cows, a far more efficient source of calories, not to mention the benefits of the other by-products. 

 

For the past 4 decades or so a number of major diseases have been squarely attributed to meat and dairy product consumption. This has been found to be not true, hence Prof. Noakes' diet, Banting and even the new carnivore diet. I can't see how meat has been made aspirational, on the contrary, the health industry has demonized meat.

 

Of course corporate greed does encourage efficiency to a degree, but I would suggest that globalism is by far a bigger factor at play. Efficiency is not going to drive demand whereas the more than doubling of the human population in the past 5 decades certainly will.

 

I feel we're talking in circles. You point out evidence for exponential food production for a growing population. We all agree that population growth is an issue.I say it need not be so exponential if we ate less meat. Because as you said 'This is driving factory farming, this is driving deforestation and natural habitat destruction to make place for large scale industrial farming.' Wheres the debate?

 

I have not seen the recent debunking of disease myths, in fact I thought its gone the other way, but would like to read about it. 

 

The aspirational part I took from something I read long ago about the rise in middle class Asia (China). Meat is seen as a luxury there as the poor did not have access to it. As the money gears have turned so has the demand for meat (and many many other luxuries) therefore the explosion in factory farming. Again, this is not only population growth, this is accessibility growth. Short of solving the worlds population problem, we can (like right here) try to change some ideals away from meat consumption. Create less meat demand, make less need for mass production and less of the things you precisely mention in your prior posts.

 

Demonized meat? No. You just pointed out fad (health industry) diets with their focus on meat consumption. Demonized meat industry? Yes. Thats only very recent and was often fringe. As for  mass meat suppliers - Growing animals in the worst conditions specifically to kill them is perhaps worth demonizing no?

 

The out of control population growth you bring up again in the final point, again I reckon we're all in agreement.

[Chris_]

I'm rallying against the untruths of veganism.

 

1. It is not unethical to eat meat.

2. Veganism is not healthy.

3. Veganism is not better for the environment.

 

These are the three pillars supporting the vegan argument. They are myths.

 

My basic argument is that the massive human population explosion is the root cause of all the problems we are facing today, and not the fact that we eat meat.

 

I'm so glad you finally put this down. I was actually starting to think we were pretty close on reasoning with a number of issues....

[Patchelicious]

 

 

 

 

 

just a little micro chirp

Edited February 6, 2019 by Patchelicious