Duane_Bosch Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 The law doesn't see it the same way. Cyclists riding single file get knocked - 100% blame apportioned to driver. However, cyclists riding 2/3 abreast will not have the same level of protection. Perhaps blame will be apportioned 50/50, because of said cyclists breaking a rule of the road. This is not victim blaming, these are facts which will impact possible driver liability, potential RAF claims etc.That's bull****. So it's ok to knock over a jaywalker? You need to do your learners again mate. It's your duty as a motorist to not mow over more vulnerable road users. Jaywalkers, mamils 3 abreast, dogs, old grannies at the stop street. etc etc.
LeoKnight Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 Am I understand it correct, the opinion of some is that till EVERY single vehicle driver respects and follows the rules, cyclist can do and ride however they feel they want to to get maximum perceived safety and demand sympathy if anything bad happens? It might sounds like extreme but hey that is the hub, everything to extremes and no middle ground
ChrisF Posted December 10, 2018 Author Posted December 10, 2018 Am I understand it correct, the opinion of some is that till EVERY single vehicle driver respects and follows the rules, cyclist can do and ride however they feel they want to to get maximum perceived safety and demand sympathy if anything bad happens? It might sounds like extreme but hey that is the hub, everything to extremes and no middle ground O-well, we can start a club of two believers .... (actually think there are a few more of us on the hub) believers that think road safety has TWO sides .... ONE - Vehicle drivers acting in a manner that would improve the life safety of ALL who drive, ride and walk on and along our roads ... TWO - Cyclists that behave in a manner that improve their own safety with the least possible impact on other road users .... imagine a world where cyclists use cycling lanes (where it is available), where cyclists make use of the yellow lane (where it is available and safe)..... PS - despite the various post on this thread, I saw MANY riders on Saturday morning ride in a safe manner, even vehicles waiting for a safe gap around cyclists .... only three "blocking the road" .... so just maybe the vast majority of cyclists are in agreement that safety IS a two-way street .... THERE IS HOPE !
Pure Savage Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 The law doesn't see it the same way. Cyclists riding single file get knocked - 100% blame apportioned to driver. However, cyclists riding 2/3 abreast will not have the same level of protection. Perhaps blame will be apportioned 50/50, because of said cyclists breaking a rule of the road. This is not victim blaming, these are facts which will impact possible driver liability, potential RAF claims etc.You will find when you kill someone they don’t apportion blame. If you are unable to not run over vulnerable road users you should not be driving. If cyclists are 2/3 abreast the driver would have to admit that they road over a vulnerable road user. If single file the driver could say they thought it was safe and squeeze past.
Pure Savage Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 Am I understand it correct, the opinion of some is that till EVERY single vehicle driver respects and follows the rules, cyclist can do and ride however they feel they want to to get maximum perceived safety and demand sympathy if anything bad happens? It might sounds like extreme but hey that is the hub, everything to extremes and no middle groundYes, until the road users that kill people daily on be road start to behaving like they are driving a killing machine then everyone else on the road needs to ride/drive accordingly.
Phatman Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 That's bull****. So it's ok to knock over a jaywalker? You need to do your learners again mate. It's your duty as a motorist to not mow over more vulnerable road users. Jaywalkers, mamils 3 abreast, dogs, old grannies at the stop street. etc etc.Calm down, I don't make the road rules. It's not "ok" to knock over anyone, but blame IS apportioned, for example if said jaywalker is intoxicated. Cyclists are obligated to follow road rules just like drivers in order to make the roads safer for all users.
Phatman Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 You will find when you kill someone they don’t apportion blame. If you are unable to not run over vulnerable road users you should not be driving. If cyclists are 2/3 abreast the driver would have to admit that they road over a vulnerable road user. If single file the driver could say they thought it was safe and squeeze past.Blame is apportioned in any accident. I'm not saying it's ok to run over any road user (cyclist, pedestrian etc). But it is arrogance to think that we can do whatever we like with no regard for other road users and drivers must just deal with it.
Duane_Bosch Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 Calm down, I don't make the road rules. It's not "ok" to knock over anyone, but blame IS apportioned, for example if said jaywalker is intoxicated. Cyclists are obligated to follow road rules just like drivers in order to make the roads safer for all users.Please provide the piece of legislation where "blame is aportioned" https://www.aa.co.za/insights/motorists-obligations-towards-pedestrians-and-cyclists
shaper Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 O-well, we can start a club of two believers .... (actually think there are a few more of us on the hub) believers that think road safety has TWO sides .... ONE - Vehicle drivers acting in a manner that would improve the life safety of ALL who drive, ride and walk on and along our roads ... TWO - Cyclists that behave in a manner that improve their own safety with the least possible impact on other road users .... imagine a world where cyclists use cycling lanes (where it is available), where cyclists make use of the yellow lane (where it is available and safe)..... PS - despite the various post on this thread, I saw MANY riders on Saturday morning ride in a safe manner, even vehicles waiting for a safe gap around cyclists .... only three "blocking the road" .... so just maybe the vast majority of cyclists are in agreement that safety IS a two-way street .... THERE IS HOPE !The main fact of your argument is actually that you do not know the road traffic act as i mentioned in one of my earlier posts and your misplaced anger is incorrect !! You state "NOTE - the yellow lane is wide enough for two cyclists next to each other. Nope, these three rocket-scientists ride one on the yellow lane, and the other two next to him blocking the oncoming lane !! :cursing:" The road traffic act clearly stated that the yellow lane is for emergency only. So the cyclists have every right to be in the road blocking the traffic. In terms of the act, the only rocket scientist as you call them is the one in the yellow line who is actually using it illegally as he is not in an emergency situation. You call yourself a cyclist.... the mere fact that you rant at this is more that your are a motorist who cycles but actually does not know the road traffic act !! The only misconception that you and practically every other motorist has is that cyclists must be in the yellow lane which is in fact illegal but the majority do out of courtesy for other road users (you in your car) and for fear of being run over by idiots in their car! If you want a club of believers, know what you are believing in first... and not a perceived misconception!
LeoKnight Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 Yes, until the road users that kill people daily on be road start to behaving like they are driving a killing machine then everyone else on the road needs to ride/drive accordingly. The we can just as well give up, because that will not happen, the world is not on a trend where it is becoming a better place for all, but rather for those that think alike. There will always be those that feel that they are untouchable (across race, sex, age, financial status, etc) irrespective of the rules & enforcement actions. And my view is that there is even less likelihood of a change if there is a perception that cyclists in general don't care about the rules, which will fuel the vehicle drivers behavior to also not care (Ladder of Inference is probably a good theory to explain it). My view I see this as the rule of 10 (applying to both cyclist and other road users) 2 people will ALWAYS follow the rules and be courteous to other road users6 people will depending on circumstances, pressure, potential consequences, etc do the right thing / wrong thing2 people will ALWAYS act in their own interest, not caring about rules or consequences, others and what is beneficial for others Our best hope is to influence those 6 by being a good example for them to follow while looking out for those 2 buggers...
Pure Savage Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 dear sir, we agree on many things. But if I agreed with you on this, we would both be wrong ..... riding IN the road just after a blind rise is just plain rusian roulette .... PS - you surely quoted a lot for somebody that "did not bother to read" the opening post .... dont worry, I wont hold it against you.I was told I may not comment any further till I read your full post. Hence the quotes. I understand where you are coming from, I was there once. There is no rule on the hub saying we must agree, thats why its lekker. Having followed bicycle advocacy groups now for some time one is able to see what the actual threats to cyclists well being actually are, neither are helmets nor motorist attitudes. Its mainly infrastructure and impatience.
Pure Savage Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 The we can just as well give up, because that will not happen, the world is not on a trend where it is becoming a better place for all, but rather for those that think alike. There will always be those that feel that they are untouchable (across race, sex, age, financial status, etc) irrespective of the rules & enforcement actions. And my view is that there is even less likelihood of a change if there is a perception that cyclists in general don't care about the rules, which will fuel the vehicle drivers behavior to also not care (Ladder of Inference is probably a good theory to explain it). My view I see this as the rule of 10 (applying to both cyclist and other road users) 2 people will ALWAYS follow the rules and be courteous to other road users6 people will depending on circumstances, pressure, potential consequences, etc do the right thing / wrong thing2 people will ALWAYS act in their own interest, not caring about rules or consequences, others and what is beneficial for others Our best hope is to influence those 6 by being a good example for them to follow while looking out for those 2 buggers...Agree fully about making people feel more lekker towards cyclists, but when I am riding 10/10 of those 8/10 drivers are a possible threat to my life. All it takes is a quick look at the cell phone or think its safe to overtake on a blind corner or turn left without looking or just speed slightly over the speed limit. There is just no evidence that cyclist hate translates to more dangerous roads. Australia which have policed the cyclists and has one of the best behaving cycling communities has one of the worst bicycle fatality rates, so even when cyclists obey the laws motorists dont care. So the idea that badly behaved cyclists are their own worse enemy is a false fact as in the real world even the best behaved cycling community is the most endangered.
Pure Savage Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 Blame is apportioned in any accident. I'm not saying it's ok to run over any road user (cyclist, pedestrian etc). But it is arrogance to think that we can do whatever we like with no regard for other road users and drivers must just deal with it.You can do whatever you like within the law and other road users must deal with it. Flip how is it that hard to understand? If someone is doing 65 in an 80 zone do you hoot honk your horn flash your lights till the person pulls over? Does your car have four round circles on the front or a B M W?
LeoKnight Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 Agree fully about making people feel more lekker towards cyclists, but when I am riding 10/10 of those 8/10 drivers are a possible threat to my life. All it takes is a quick look at the cell phone or think its safe to overtake on a blind corner or turn left without looking or just speed slightly over the speed limit. There is just no evidence that cyclist hate translates to more dangerous roads. Australia which have policed the cyclists and has one of the best behaving cycling communities has one of the worst bicycle fatality rates, so even when cyclists obey the laws motorists dont care. So the idea that badly behaved cyclists are their own worse enemy is a false fact as in the real world even the best behaved cycling community is the most endangered. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/08/australian-cyclist-deaths-surge-and-road-safety-strategy-failing Seems that the biggest culprit is potentially the use of the mobile phone. So if you riding in the yellow, or in the middle of the road neither will protect you from such a driver.
Pure Savage Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/08/australian-cyclist-deaths-surge-and-road-safety-strategy-failing Seems that the biggest culprit is potentially the use of the mobile phone. So if you riding in the yellow, or in the middle of the road neither will protect you from such a driver. More likely if someone is only briefly looking up that they will see someone in front of their line of sight vs under front left wheel. But yeah, if the driver aint looking doesnt matter really.
LeoKnight Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 More likely if someone is only briefly looking up that they will see someone in front of their line of sight vs under front left wheel. But yeah, if the driver aint looking doesnt matter really. Which brings up the question what can we as cyclist do1) Wearing bright colours?2) Lots of lights around the bike?3) Warning systems ?
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