Icycling Posted June 26, 2008 Share Carbon for bike is great. Titanium for bikes is great. Currently their are Carbon Titanium bikes available trying to maximise the best tubing material depending on the location of the tube on the frame for maximum stiffness and comfort. I am sure within the next 10 year the material been used for bikes will be a carbon Ti (or a similar metal) weave which would hopefully allow a lower resin content and thus even allow for lighter frames without compromising stiffness and comfort! Watch this space! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bak2basiks Posted June 26, 2008 Share Crash a Ti bike and you get up and continue riding' date=' crash a carbon bike and it has a big chance of needing replacement. When carbon breaks, it breaks catastrophically, but it is almost impossible to break Ti, although you may bend it with extreme difficulty. [/quote']Ok...so I don't want to be the doos in this Carbon/Ti discussion, but on this point of CarbonBoy I would disagree strongly. While I agree fully that bicycles are not designed to crash (which is a crucial point), in the event of a "head-on" collision, I'd go for the carbon frame. In this COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL scenario, I'd rather go for a "catastrophic" disintegration of my carbon fiber frame than keep my "super-stiff, unbreakable" Ti frame. Most of the collision energy will then be absorbed by the carbon frame, shattering it to pieces.....leaving ME "unscathed" with minimal internal injuries.....ready to carry my wheels, drivetrain, cranks and handlebars home....On the other hand. ER24 will have to come and pick me up after a crash on the Ti bike, because all collision forces were mostly transfered to me, leaving me with some major internal injuries....I can then brag to my fiends in hospital that the frame was unscathed in the crash.... Just my R2000 worth.....or should that be 2c... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted June 26, 2008 Share Carbon for bike is great. Titanium for bikes is great. Currently their are Carbon Titanium bikes available trying to maximise the best tubing material depending on the location of the tube on the frame for maximum stiffness and comfort. I am sure within the next 10 year the material been used for bikes will be a carbon Ti (or a similar metal) weave which would hopefully allow a lower resin content and thus even allow for lighter frames without compromising stiffness and comfort! Watch this space! I agree that carbon for bikes is great but disagree about titanium. I think ti is sub-optimum. Also, the addage that different materials for different frame tubes is supposedly the best way to build a frame is not true. There is nothing titanium brings to the party that carbon cannot, for any one particular tube. On a bicycle you want maximum stiffness everywhere and minimum weight. Titanium would offer less than maximum stiffness and more weight than is necessary. Titanium could be used for drop-outs and threaded inserts since carbon is poor in that area but then, alu would do the same job more efficiently. Perhaps you have a specific tube in mind that could serve as an example? Resin weighs less than metal and by weaving metal in with graphite fibres just won't do the trick. You need resin to hold the lot together and metal strands in the matrix doesn't give us any of the properties we desire. You cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot have stiffness and comfort. The two are laterally opposed. My crystal ball doesn't go beyond carbon fibre. I haven't seen the future yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fandacious Posted June 26, 2008 Share My crystal ball doesn't go beyond carbon fibre. I haven't seen the future yet. what about kcnc and their "scandium". Its definitely lighter than carbon, and supposedly stiffer as well... you had any experience with it before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canaris Posted June 26, 2008 Share My crystal ball doesn't go beyond carbon fibre. I haven't seen the future yet. what about kcnc and their "scandium". Its definitely lighter than carbon' date=' and supposedly stiffer as well... you had any experience with it before?[/quote'] scandium is normally mixed with alu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandium http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files_unprotected/r&d_files/R&D-03%20Scandium.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Devil Posted June 26, 2008 Share Crash a Ti bike and you get up and continue riding' date=' crash a carbon bike and it has a big chance of needing replacement. When carbon breaks, it breaks catastrophically, but it is almost impossible to break Ti, although you may bend it with extreme difficulty. [/quote']Ok...so I don't want to be the doos in this Carbon/Ti discussion, but on this point of CarbonBoy I would disagree strongly. While I agree fully that bicycles are not designed to crash (which is a crucial point), in the event of a "head-on" collision, I'd go for the carbon frame. In this COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL scenario, I'd rather go for a "catastrophic" disintegration of my carbon fiber frame than keep my "super-stiff, unbreakable" Ti frame. Most of the collision energy will then be absorbed by the carbon frame, shattering it to pieces.....leaving ME "unscathed" with minimal internal injuries.....ready to carry my wheels, drivetrain, cranks and handlebars home....On the other hand. ER24 will have to come and pick me up after a crash on the Ti bike, because all collision forces were mostly transfered to me, leaving me with some major internal injuries....I can then brag to my fiends in hospital that the frame was unscathed in the crash....Just my R2000 worth.....or should that be 2c... I have to disagree with you bak2basiks If would not make any difference if you are doing 30kmph on a carbon or Ti frame and you were involved in a head on collision. In such an accident you would be deisengaged from your bike and be splattered against the windscreen of the car and your injuries would be the same. If you were on a carbon bike you would be picking the carbon pieces out of your skin for the next six months as the frame would have shattered, sending chips and splinters of carbon flying at high velocity in all directions., where as with a Ti bike your frame would just crumple and everything would stay intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fandacious Posted June 26, 2008 Share scandium is normally mixed with alu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandium http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files_unprotected/r&d_files/R&D-03%20Scandium.pdf yeah - i was looking @ the wikipedia entry before i made my post. However, scandium IS an element, just not very bountiful. I wonder if KCNC use pure scandium or SC-AL alloy? I'd like to see christies graph with SC and SC-AL on it as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canaris Posted June 26, 2008 Share scandium is normally mixed with alu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandium http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files_unprotected/r&d_files/R&D-03%20Scandium.pdf yeah - i was looking @ the wikipedia entry before i made my post. However' date=' scandium IS an element, just not very bountiful. I wonder if KCNC use pure scandium or SC-AL alloy? I'd like to see christies graph with SC and SC-AL on it as well...[/quote'] read the pdf file. easton did the initial work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fandacious Posted June 26, 2008 Share interesting... although I was thinking more along the lines of seatposts, stems and handlebars... not too sure about the whole frame tho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbathemutt007 Posted June 26, 2008 Share My crystal ball doesn't go beyond carbon fibre. I haven't seen the future yet. what about kcnc and their "scandium". Its definitely lighter than carbon' date=' and supposedly stiffer as well... you had any experience with it before?[/quote'] Well there is magnesium if Pinarello (and American Classic) are to be believed:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2004/reviews/pinarello_dogma_fp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted June 26, 2008 Share My crystal ball doesn't go beyond carbon fibre. I haven't seen the future yet. what about kcnc and their "scandium". Its definitely lighter than carbon' date=' and supposedly stiffer as well... you had any experience with it before?[/quote'] I once picked up and kicked the tyres of a scandium/aluminium frame at a trade show in Los Angeles. It was pretty much the same as that of today's carbon fibre frames. The price was outrageous though, I can't remember exactly but it was something like $6000 back in the early 1990s. It just doesn't make sense. Scandium is still very, very expensive so why bother? I can see a few millionaires who already have the diamonds on the soles of their feet and now want something more exotic, buying a scandium frame. Problem is, you'll have to paint Scandium all over it for the plebs like you and I to appreciate it. I've also seen a Boron frame, this impressed me with its lightness at the time but it'll never go into production. Boron is poison and the machinists have to wear air supply hoods when machining the stuff. At some stage of the game the search for alternative materials becomes stupid. Today's bicycles are plenty strong and light. I think we should all go for a ride. We also have to start thinking about our footprint on this distressed little planet of ours. To make the carbon for one bicycle takes something like 100 times more energy than the equivalent steel. Why are we doing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowracer Posted June 26, 2008 Share We also have to start thinking about our footprint on this distressed little planet of ours. To make the carbon for one bicycle takes something like 100 times more energy than the equivalent steel. Why are we doing this? not many times wiser words have been spoken on the hublowracer2008-06-26 05:10:49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willehond Posted June 26, 2008 Share ...... Boron is poison and the machinists have to wear air supply hoods when machining the stuff. ............ I would rather let the Boron kill me than listen to Air Supply all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted June 26, 2008 Share ...... Boron is poison and the machinists have to wear air supply hoods when machining the stuff. ............ I would rather let the Boron kill me than listen to Air Supply all day. EVERY WOMAN IN THE WORLDwould tell you that you can BRING OUT THE MAGICby killing yourself with boron and then there would beTWO LESS LONELY PEOPLE IN THE WORLDWe all know that scandium produces a ride that makes for SWEAT DREAMSNOW AND FOREVER. Actually, come to think of it, there's no putting a better cherry on top of your comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenierSteffen Posted June 26, 2008 Share Hi Johan Weet jy waar ek n tool kan kry om disc rotors te true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreZA Posted June 26, 2008 Share Hi Johan Weet jy waar ek n tool kan kry om disc rotors te true? Het jy 'n stoof plaat en 'n swaar pot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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