cycling and faith

[Willehond]

We are now the blue' date=' black and white team, well in the next 3 weeks when we get our new kit we are. Your other question is rather silly to be honest.[/quote']

 

My point is rather that there must be some magical point where riders start doping because non of us do it (right?), so are you implying it is at a national level (Konnika Minolta, MTN etc.) where EVERYBODY starts using it or only once they step up to Continental/Pro tour teams like Barloworld? 

 

Stating that 100% of the riders are using it is just as silly as stating that your team must be doping.  It must either both be true or both be wrong?

[Guest colonel]

There are guys riding with us in League that are doping, there are alot more in the Pro teams in SA that dope and there are even more in PT and Conti teams that are. Im sure there are guys that arent but they not riding the tour, giro, vuelta etc.

 

[Canaris]

We are now the blue' date=' black and white team, well in the next 3 weeks when we get our new kit we are. Your other question is rather silly to be honest.[/quote']

 

My point is rather that there must be some magical point where riders start doping because non of us do it (right?), so are you implying it is at a national level (Konnika Minolta, MTN etc.) where EVERYBODY starts using it or only once they step up to Continental/Pro tour teams like Barloworld? 

 

Stating that 100% of the riders are using it is just as silly as stating that your team must be doping.  It must either both be true or both be wrong?

 

the magical point is when the team budget($) is large enough to afford dope that cannot be detected (CM), and when the sponsors demands(D) for results exceed the natural abilities(A) of the riders.

 

In a formula:  ($-CM)/(D-A)= where the magic point is when any  positive number is returned  

[bruce]

 

There are guys riding with us in League that are doping' date=' there are alot more in the Pro teams in SA that dope and there are even more in PT and Conti teams that are. Im sure there are guys that arent but they not riding the tour, giro, vuelta etc.

 

[/quote']

 

Huh?  Red Bull isn't doping is it??

 

Seriously though, if you need to be on the juice to race league, you should seriously consider jukskei or carpet bowls as an alternative.

 

[Chunky]

There are guys riding with us in League that are doping' date=' there are alot more in the Pro teams in SA that dope and there are even more in PT and Conti teams that are. Im sure there are guys that arent but they not riding the tour, giro, vuelta etc.

 

[/quote']

Huh?  Red Bull isn't doping is it??

Seriously though, if you need to be on the juice to race league, you should seriously consider jukskei or carpet bowls as an alternative.

 

The standard of Racing in SA generaly is not hard enough to warrant any doping. Unfortunately most people dont see it that way.

[bruce]

 

Most proffesional cyclists have faith....

 

They have faith in EPO' date=' Growth Hormones, Steroids and other medicines. They also have faith that they will not get caught.

 

Some have more faith than the others.

 

 

[/quote']

 

Faith is required when there is a lack of evidence.  Unfortunately, there is plenty of evidence that they won't get caught, which means they don't need a lot of faith.

 

I'd argue that it is the administrators that have faith, faith in their testing procedures.

 

[Yang]

I have a kona road bike ' date=' the scadium kona kona with the easton carbon back stays.  It is the only one in South Africa, that I know of.  (had it imported).  I used to have a Kona Haole (Blue paint) (also a road bike) which is easton ultralite (I gave that one to my brother)  THere are about twenty of these in the country. [/quote']

 

I have one of the 20 Kona Haoles, with Ultegra/ 105 components- my first road bike, now used for training only. But damned if my best times over my 50km and 36km time trial patches, over many months of training, is still on that Kona, and not on my Giant TCR 0 with Record and Chorus groupset.

 

This means I am having a crisis of faith in my Giant. Should I use my Kona to race with, or carry on with my Giant? What will happen if I pray to establish a record time over that 50km distance on my Giant, and I don't achieve it, despite maxing my zone and with the wind at my back? What is God trying to tell me?

[Windbreaker]

 

There are guys riding with us in League that are doping' date=' there are alot more in the Pro teams in SA that dope and there are even more in PT and Conti teams that are. Im sure there are guys that arent but they not riding the tour, giro, vuelta etc.

 

[/quote']From a perspective of "have faith" & that the dopers are s in the minority a couple of years ago I am not so sure now.

 

I even regard the performances of locals as suspect occasionally. I guess that this is the point that Willehond is making. If we accept that they all dope at the top and some/lots (?) even at South African national level then can you ever be sure that they guy that beat you did it fair & square - even at our piss willy league level?

 

A shame ...

 

 

[Rogz]

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you have faith in your cognitive abilities?

 

As the say in South Park; Keh?

 

[original looks just fine in my browser?]

have had a coupla niggles. am posting from an ibook. don't if that's causing something to go wrong.

 

I'm very, very tempted to say that yip, if you use an ibook then things are likely to go wrong, but lets put the PC vs Mac debate on hold for now!

 

[Rogz]

 

 

Hmm' date=' I think the point Porky was making Rogz was that God has a plan, this is the basis of Christian belief, however, you have to give your life to God for that plan to unfold.This is the important point.

 

In other words "you have free choice" you can choose to follow God and give your life to him, in which case his plan will unfold, or you can choose to go your own way and believe in the the "Sun" God and follow that teaching, in which case Gods plan will not unfold.

 

Just because God knows what route you will take, dos not mean he will work to change it, which appears to be the nature of both your points.

 

No, the door you take is up to you, he provides the teachings and the scriptures which enable you to make a choice, but only you can make the decision.

 

[/quote']

 

Hmm, I still don't understand (happens often) ... I sound like a scratched CD, but my question remains (and I'm in good company, because this has occupied humanity for 1000's of years) ... whats the point? Why would an all-knowing God lay out a plan (when he already knows the outcome), and then give it to us to either follow or not (when he already knows our choice), and then choose to reveal at least this much to us (through scripture). It all just does not make any sense, and as I alluded to in a previous post, having "faith" is something I avoid, because its resulted in some seriously flawed outcomes in the past (i.e. that burning of heretics thing, as just one example)...

[Rogz]

 

This is true' date=' however you really need to understand the scripture before you can use it.  Jesus often spoke in Parables which can be interpreted differantly by differant people, but these scriptures are the defining core of christianity, they speak to its followers and we live by them, so yes of course we do quote them to support a decision or a point.

 

Oh, oh. Problem! If this is the case, then the scriptures can, be default, only be used to justify/defend an argument when both sides a) accept and believe in the scriptures, and b) interpret them in the same way. You must then understand, why non-believers get so worked up when believers insist on falling back on the scriptures. Its a bit like watching small children argue (no offence intended) ... they justify their position by saying "because I say so", or just "because". Its meaningless to whoever they are trying to argue with.

 

Jesus did it all the time, and left the words for us to follow. Its a bit like a motor car manual for us christians. Would you put the filter element on upside down when it clearly says in the manual this way up, no and to support your decision you refer to the manuals instruction - well its the same thing.!

 

No, its not the same thing at all. A car manual is based on fact, which is objective and absolute. Disconnect the oil pump, and I can guarantee, without any doubt of any kind whatsoever, that the engine will seize. I can prove this, over and over and over again to anyone, at any time, at any place, under any conditions. With the scriptures, there are *never* any guarantees at all, unless you have "faith" (and I've  already explained the problem with that).

 

I really have no issue with people discussing religion in a responsible manner even if it is contrary to my belief, I just will not tolerate, blasphemy, belittlement and ridicule of my God.

 

No problem here, unless you lump contrary opinions under the banner of blasphemy (remember those burning heretics?), belittlement or ridicule - and this is all too often what happens.

 

[/quote']

[Canaris]

I have a kona road bike ' date=' the scadium kona kona with the easton carbon back stays.  It is the only one in South Africa, that I know of.  (had it imported).  I used to have a Kona Haole (Blue paint) (also a road bike) which is easton ultralite (I gave that one to my brother)  THere are about twenty of these in the country. [/quote']

 

I have one of the 20 Kona Haoles, with Ultegra/ 105 components- my first road bike, now used for training only. But damned if my best times over my 50km and 36km time trial patches, over many months of training, is still on that Kona, and not on my Giant TCR 0 with Record and Chorus groupset.

 

This means I am having a crisis of faith in my Giant. Should I use my Kona to race with, or carry on with my Giant? What will happen if I pray to establish a record time over that 50km distance on my Giant, and I don't achieve it, despite maxing my zone and with the wind at my back? What is God trying to tell me?

 

The haole is a great frame, made out of easton ultralite alu.  It was specced in the 105 brakette to make if affordable.  You can lighten it up a lot by dumping the kona thumb-up seatpot for a carbon fibre one, change the front fork to a EC90, nice light stem and handle bars, and maybe upgrade to ultegra/ centaur.  This should bring it into the 7-8 kg range, which is very respectable.  Maybe you need move the groupo from the giant and use the giant for training and the Kona for racing?

[Yang]

I have a kona road bike ' date=' the scadium kona kona with the easton carbon back stays.  It is the only one in South Africa, that I know of.  (had it imported).  I used to have a Kona Haole (Blue paint) (also a road bike) which is easton ultralite (I gave that one to my brother)  THere are about twenty of these in the country. [/quote']

 

I have one of the 20 Kona Haoles, with Ultegra/ 105 components- my first road bike, now used for training only. But damned if my best times over my 50km and 36km time trial patches, over many months of training, is still on that Kona, and not on my Giant TCR 0 with Record and Chorus groupset.

 

This means I am having a crisis of faith in my Giant. Should I use my Kona to race with, or carry on with my Giant? What will happen if I pray to establish a record time over that 50km distance on my Giant, and I don't achieve it, despite maxing my zone and with the wind at my back? What is God trying to tell me?

 

The haole is a great frame, made out of easton ultralite alu.  It was specced in the 105 brakette to make if affordable.  You can lighten it up a lot by dumping the kona thumb-up seatpot for a carbon fibre one, change the front fork to a EC90, nice light stem and handle bars, and maybe upgrade to ultegra/ centaur.  This should bring it into the 7-8 kg range, which is very respectable.  Maybe you need move the groupo from the giant and use the giant for training and the Kona for racing?

 

Hadn't thought of that- thanks. I don't want to hijack this thread onto a technical one, so will start a new one on thisissue.

[porky]

 

This is true' date=' however you really need to understand the scripture before you can use it.  Jesus often spoke in Parables which can be interpreted differantly by differant people, but these scriptures are the defining core of christianity, they speak to its followers and we live by them, so yes of course we do quote them to support a decision or a point.

 

Oh, oh. Problem! If this is the case, then the scriptures can, be default, only be used to justify/defend an argument when both sides a) accept and believe in the scriptures, and b) interpret them in the same way. You must then understand, why non-believers get so worked up when believers insist on falling back on the scriptures. Its a bit like watching small children argue (no offence intended) ... they justify their position by saying "because I say so", or just "because". Its meaningless to whoever they are trying to argue with.

 

 

Jesus did it all the time, and left the words for us to follow. Its a bit like a motor car manual for us christians. Would you put the filter element on upside down when it clearly says in the manual this way up, no and to support your decision you refer to the manuals instruction - well its the same thing.!

 

No, its not the same thing at all. A car manual is based on fact, which is objective and absolute. Disconnect the oil pump, and I can guarantee, without any doubt of any kind whatsoever, that the engine will seize. I can prove this, over and over and over again to anyone, at any time, at any place, under any conditions. With the scriptures, there are *never* any guarantees at all, unless you have "faith" (and I've  already explained the problem with that).

 

I really have no issue with people discussing religion in a responsible manner even if it is contrary to my belief, I just will not tolerate, blasphemy, belittlement and ridicule of my God.

 

No problem here, unless you lump contrary opinions under the banner of blasphemy (remember those burning heretics?), belittlement or ridicule - and this is all too often what happens.

 

[/quote']

 

This discussion will go nowhere, you Rodz are arguing from a point of Non-Belief and we are arguing from a point of Belief.

 

You seem to think that we dont believe the scriptures, No,No, for the Christian the scriptures are fact, Jesus walked the earth, raised the dead, healed the sick, and left us a "bible" by which to live - there are no "doubts" it is fact because we believe.!

 

Obviously, if you do not believe in Jesus theres no reason for you to believe in the scriptures and we are just not even on the same page.

 

I could argue in your terms by saying if I was teleported back to the 10th century and I told people that in the 21st century we have cars running on gasoline, look heres a workshop manual!! - do you think they would all believe me??

 

No, some who had "faith" would, but those who had never seen a car and couldnt grasp its concept would argue from their "known" view point.

 

I am finished with this now, its been fun (well, occassionally) but I shall just leave you with two scriptures  - which explains the "faith" we as christians are asked to have.

 

a)Hebrews 11 verse 1 - Faith is been sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.

 

b)After Jesus rose from the dead and Thomas (doubting Thomas) had seen his wounds he said to Thomas - You believe because you have seen, blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe.

 

Well, thats me chap, I respect your view and I have made my point, if you reply I will probably read it, but my stance is clear, I dont think we can go much further here without going in circles.??