Opinion Please. What is a cracked frame worth?

[Tomik]

Hi all. 

Thanks for your comments. I thought I would let you all know what transpired and the lessons learnt that may help somebody.

The insurer was Santam with whom I insure my cars, house and household contents. I had a broker but am not so sure it added value. The bike (BMC Team Machine SLR01 with Dura-Ace di2) was insured for R125000 (probably the first mistake). Value new is c. R180000. 

The original assessment by Carbon Bicycle Repairs in Durbanville was to repair the frame but as that voids the warranty (thankfully BMC warranty extends to 2nd owner) I refused this offer, After getting Riders at Work involved (they recommended a replacement frameset on warranty grounds), Santam eventually agreed to replace the frame. They refused to pay the R90k that an equivalent frame would have cost (remember at that point to my knowledge there were no exact replacement frames available). RAW mistakenly sourced an SLR frame (value R36999) and Santam wanted to settle for R40k, which I again declined as it is the lower tier frameset. Thanks to information received on this thread, I sourced an exact replacement frameset from Abloc (previous agents I think) which is being couriered to my local bike shop as we speak. Final settlement value is c. R60k (frameset was on sale, plus rebuild and courier costs).

This whole process has taken 6 weeks with lots of back-and-forth and frustration, all so Santam could save R30k.

Lessons learnt:

Check your policy and the insurers protocols (repair vs. replace) BEFORE you need to claim and get it in writing if possible. My broker did not explain any of this to me and the policy schedule is not specific either.

Insure your bike for new replacement value, not the price you paid 2nd hand (or current "value"). Again, my broker did not give me advice on this. I spoke to Cyclesure and this is what they insist on. I believe it will give you a better bargaining position with all insurers. Premiums will be higher but this is definitely a case of getting what you pay for. 

If you buy used, try get the original invoice from the seller. Santam insisted on this but eventually gave in. They want to be able to verify the value of the bike as they think all their clients are trying to rip them off.

I'll be switching my bicycle insurance to Cyclesure as I do not want to go through this frustration again.

Hope this helps somebody.

 

[ChrisF]

10 minutes ago, Tomik said:

Hi all. 

Thanks for your comments. I thought I would let you all know what transpired and the lessons learnt that may help somebody.

The insurer was Santam with whom I insure my cars, house and household contents. I had a broker but am not so sure it added value. The bike (BMC Team Machine SLR01 with Dura-Ace di2) was insured for R125000 (probably the first mistake). Value new is c. R180000. 

The original assessment by Carbon Bicycle Repairs in Durbanville was to repair the frame but as that voids the warranty (thankfully BMC warranty extends to 2nd owner) I refused this offer, After getting Riders at Work involved (they recommended a replacement frameset on warranty grounds), Santam eventually agreed to replace the frame. They refused to pay the R90k that an equivalent frame would have cost (remember at that point to my knowledge there were no exact replacement frames available). RAW mistakenly sourced an SLR frame (value R36999) and Santam wanted to settle for R40k, which I again declined as it is the lower tier frameset. Thanks to information received on this thread, I sourced an exact replacement frameset from Abloc (previous agents I think) which is being couriered to my local bike shop as we speak. Final settlement value is c. R60k (frameset was on sale, plus rebuild and courier costs).

This whole process has taken 6 weeks with lots of back-and-forth and frustration, all so Santam could save R30k.

Lessons learnt:

Check your policy and the insurers protocols (repair vs. replace) BEFORE you need to claim and get it in writing if possible. My broker did not explain any of this to me and the policy schedule is not specific either.

Insure your bike for new replacement value, not the price you paid 2nd hand (or current "value"). Again, my broker did not give me advice on this. I spoke to Cyclesure and this is what they insist on. I believe it will give you a better bargaining position with all insurers. Premiums will be higher but this is definitely a case of getting what you pay for. 

If you buy used, try get the original invoice from the seller. Santam insisted on this but eventually gave in. They want to be able to verify the value of the bike as they think all their clients are trying to rip them off.

I'll be switching my bicycle insurance to Cyclesure as I do not want to go through this frustration again.

Hope this helps somebody.

 

 

Tomik glad you got sorted ... in the end.  This type of frustration is what gives this industry a bad name.

 

I am also insured at Santam, also via a broker.  It HELPS that my broker does Ironman, Trans Baviaans, Comrades, etc.  She KNOWS what we need.

 

Every 18 to 24 months I get a new written "replacement value" quote for my bike.  This is placed on my file, and the insured value adjusted accordingly.

 

She also recommended that I use the "Wearables" cover from Santam.  This will cover my Garmin watch, helmet, shoes, etc.  (NOT the Garmin mounted on the bike).

 

With the claims I have had, I did not speak to Santam once.  She takes care of ALL my paperwork and correspondence.  After an accident Santam increased my premium.  She immediately followed up with them, indicating that I was stationary and not to blame in any way.  Two emails later she got them to reverse the premium increase.  

 

A GOOD broker really helps.  Not just when you claim, but also in making sure you have the appropriate cover.

[PhilipV]

Glad you are sorted. 

Those are some valuable lessons, and it's applicable to all insurers. I've just mailed a fresh replacement quote to my broker.

My experience with Santam was totally different when I damaged a frame. Replaced, no questions asked. 

 

Be wary of the different mouths that the insurer's sales and claims departments  speak out of.

A mate of mine had a cracked carbon spez frame. He was insured through one of the direct-to-consumer bicycle specialist insurers. 

They said it was a manufacturers fault and the frame should warranteed, Spez SA said it was obviously in a crash and it's an insurance claim. It went back and forth until insurance relented and paid out the frame. A couple of months later my friend went on a group ride, and MO and behold, someone pitches up with his old frame. So the insurer was perfectly happy to repair that frame and sell it on to refray costs. 

[The Ouzo]

I had one bad experience with SANTAM many many years back and vowed to never use them again.

I was rear ended in the car, twice in one week. Second incident happened before their assessor looked at the car after the first incident. They wanted to charge me double excess as it was 2 events. I thought I was doing the right thing and reported both incidents to them. 

After some fighting they eventually agreed to only 1 excess. 

Got the car repaired and move away from them ASAP. 

[bleedToWin]

3 hours ago, PhilipV said:

someone pitches up with his old frame. So the insurer was perfectly happy to repair that frame and sell it on to refray costs. 

Why would this be a problem. It's their property after settling the claim.

[Bub Marley]

5 hours ago, Tomik said:

Hi all. 

Thanks for your comments. I thought I would let you all know what transpired and the lessons learnt that may help somebody.

The insurer was Santam with whom I insure my cars, house and household contents. I had a broker but am not so sure it added value. The bike (BMC Team Machine SLR01 with Dura-Ace di2) was insured for R125000 (probably the first mistake). Value new is c. R180000. 

The original assessment by Carbon Bicycle Repairs in Durbanville was to repair the frame but as that voids the warranty (thankfully BMC warranty extends to 2nd owner) I refused this offer, After getting Riders at Work involved (they recommended a replacement frameset on warranty grounds), Santam eventually agreed to replace the frame. They refused to pay the R90k that an equivalent frame would have cost (remember at that point to my knowledge there were no exact replacement frames available). RAW mistakenly sourced an SLR frame (value R36999) and Santam wanted to settle for R40k, which I again declined as it is the lower tier frameset. Thanks to information received on this thread, I sourced an exact replacement frameset from Abloc (previous agents I think) which is being couriered to my local bike shop as we speak. Final settlement value is c. R60k (frameset was on sale, plus rebuild and courier costs).

This whole process has taken 6 weeks with lots of back-and-forth and frustration, all so Santam could save R30k.

Lessons learnt:

Check your policy and the insurers protocols (repair vs. replace) BEFORE you need to claim and get it in writing if possible. My broker did not explain any of this to me and the policy schedule is not specific either.

Insure your bike for new replacement value, not the price you paid 2nd hand (or current "value"). Again, my broker did not give me advice on this. I spoke to Cyclesure and this is what they insist on. I believe it will give you a better bargaining position with all insurers. Premiums will be higher but this is definitely a case of getting what you pay for. 

If you buy used, try get the original invoice from the seller. Santam insisted on this but eventually gave in. They want to be able to verify the value of the bike as they think all their clients are trying to rip them off.

I'll be switching my bicycle insurance to Cyclesure as I do not want to go through this frustration again.

Hope this helps somebody.

 

Honestly, as a broker myself. I find this experience with Santam very strange. Are you insured with them directly or is through a Group Scheme? Your broker should be able to tell you this.

 

My experience in dealing with Santam for the past 20 years as a broker is that they are by far and away the best insurer to deal with. I cannot believe they would insist on a repair to a frame that’s under warranty still. That’s completely out of order. 

 

Also just to chime in here wrt repair/replace. All insurers are well within their right to repair a frame if it can be repaired unless it voids a warranty. I know we don’t like to ride repaired carbon but if it can be fixed and this is confirmed by an authorised repairer that it’s structurally safe then any insurer is well within their right to repair. Also, I’m pretty sure that every insurer will have it in their policy wording that they can choose whether to repair/replace. I doubt you will find a company explicitly stating in their wording that they will just replace. That wouldn’t be very business smart.

 

47 minutes ago, ouzo said:

I had one bad experience with SANTAM many many years back and vowed to never use them again.

I was rear ended in the car, twice in one week. Second incident happened before their assessor looked at the car after the first incident. They wanted to charge me double excess as it was 2 events. I thought I was doing the right thing and reported both incidents to them. 

After some fighting they eventually agreed to only 1 excess. 

Got the car repaired and move away from them ASAP. 

Just on this post. Santam is actually correct in implementing 2 excesses. You pay an excess per incident, doesn’t matter if it happened in the space of a week or if it happened at the same spot. It’s 2 incidents so its 2 excesses. If the damage was all on the same spot, then you should have just reported 1 claim to the insurer. You still report the second accident to the police but its not necessary to report this to the insurer.

 

What happens in 99% of cases like this, is you normally have a smart assessor that can actually use his head and determine that its the same damage and they then waive it. Sometimes you can get a complete moron. But If you’ve told the insurer there are 2 accidents, how do they determine which damage was caused by which accident? So technically speaking Santam have correctly applied the wording and it should be 2 excesses. I’m glad you got it resolved though as it would’ve been a bit harsh. An incident like is the perfect example of how a broker would have added value and given you better advice.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Bub Marley

[PhilipV]

49 minutes ago, bleedToWin said:

Why would this be a problem. It's their property after settling the claim.

What I meant was: don't let the sales department at Cyclesure make you believe that they will set you right at all costs, and that carbon frame repairs won't be good enough, as they have tried to pass the buck in the past, and they were too happy to sell a frame that has been repaired.

I don't have a problem with repairing carbon.  I rode the crap put of a repaired carbon frame, and I tried really hard to break it. I've broken 3 ali frames in my lifetime, but I couldn't break that frame after it was repaired. 

[Tomik]

2 hours ago, Bub Marley said:

Honestly, as a broker myself. I find this experience with Santam very strange. Are you insured with them directly or is through a Group Scheme? Your broker should be able to tell you this.

 

My experience in dealing with Santam for the past 20 years as a broker is that they are by far and away the best insurer to deal with. I cannot believe they would insist on a repair to a frame that’s under warranty still. That’s completely out of order. 

I'm insured directly through a large brokerage, not a group scheme. My premiums are R6k a month. They screwed me around for 6 weeks to save R30k in the end. That's 5 months of premiums. That is not smart business. 

Had it been an old bike, with no warranty I would have been satisfied with a repair. But this was a newish, premium bike. 

BTW, as far as I know there are no repairers that are authorized by the manufacturers to repair carbon frames. While I don't doubt a repair would be safe, that's not the point. Santam couldn't get their heads around this. 

[Luca Stermin]

@Tomik glad it got sorted. One thing to add. The frame set of R36 999.99 was a 2023 BMC Team Machine SLR 01. Enduro Planet had stock of these frame set.  You more than welcome to check their website out. Brand new frame set. 

[Tomik]

Unfortunately that's what RAW thought too, but turns out they had/have the SLR frameset, which is not the same as the SLR01. Kind of like a Spez vs. S-works story but with more confusing naming. 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Tomik