Johan Bornman Posted October 2, 2008 Share cut cut cut cut Tyre manufacturers put a little more effort into developing tread patterns than just coming up with cute pretty little shapes and then flipping a coin as to which way those cute pretty little shapes should rotate.<?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/maxxis-crossmark.jpg This is funny. Have a good look at the centre row of blocks on the tread on this very popular tyre. According to you' date=' scientists in white coats did numerous tests and trials and came up with the Swiss National flag as the optimum tread shape. This must have made the marketer's day, as it just happens that the mascot for this tyre is a certain Sausser (SP?), world champ, who is a Swiss national and proudly rides with the cross on his kit. Tread patterns are designed to increase traction and reduce rolling resistance, so fitting them the wrong way will more than likely have the opposite effect of reducing traction and increasing rolling resistance. Take it back to your LBS to have the job done properly. <?: PREFIX = O />This particular tyre's predecessor didn't have the Swiss Cross since obviously the scientists at the lab haven't yet discovered the superior properties of traction on the Swiss flag. It had the pattern of the two secondary rows all over. If you follow the directional instructions on that tyre you'll see that it is contrary to your statement of "improving traction" since the ramps are now in the direction of what you perceive should be where they require grip rather than slip. Smoke and mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted October 2, 2008 Share Mud expelling is 90% myth since it cannot be scaled down from tractor to bicycle tyres' date=' just like a model motor boat cannot create the foamy wake a larger boat can create and can therefore not be used for movie special effects. [/quote'] ha! that's where i have to disagree. ask the hubbers who joined us at groenies about the wake i caused that day. Please elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intern Posted October 2, 2008 Share Just an observation - Johan' date=' why do you always shout down anyone else who ventures an experience or an opinion on tech Q and A? You inevitably come across as someone who believes that his opinion, and only his, is the right one. People who have been working in cycling know that bikes in many instances are idiosyncratic little buggers, just like their owners. What works for one, whether a placebo effect or not, may not work for another. You might think that it is all 'smoke and mirrors' - if I am not mistaken, you were a marketing director for an IT company, so perhaps know more about the lies and misinformation that said IT companies promulgate. I am not sure that this carries over to the cycling industry? I'd say constructive contribution is better, but that's me.[/quote'] I strongly differentiate between opinion and fact. If in your opinion, red bikes are the nicest. I respect that. However if you say red bikes are the fastest, I'll dispute that. Have a good look at my posts and you'll notice that I stick to facts, question marketing hype with solid science and dislike blind belief. When opinion is presented as fact, I react. As for me being in the lies and misinformation business, you are mistaken but I resent the parallels you're drawing. If you suggest that I'm here to bullsh*t, then you better cite an example of such behaviour or apologise. After yesterday's tirade when I pointed out your MAS answer and now this "observation", I suggest you twitlist me and just don't read what I write. We are both clearly better off without each other. Sweet, dude. It was you who called it marketing hype and smoke and mirrors. I call that lies and misinformation, semantics, whatever. Hope you enjoyed reading my 'tirade' on MAS as much as I enjoyed pointing out the faulty logic at play. Peace out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted October 2, 2008 Share cut cut cut I am asking becuase I fitted the Geax tyres for speed at the front and grip at the back and with my very first ride on them lost my front wheel at a very non technical section and ended up breaking my wrist!!! I'm sorry to hear about your wrist and no doubt you now take tyre grip seriously. Firstly, rest assured that grip is grip, no matter which way the tyre faces. The tyre will also have the same rolling resistance (speed, as referred to here) in either direction. You fell because you lost traction. I wasn't there to say why you lost traction, but you lost traction and it wasn't the tyre's fault but the situation's. The myth of grip on the rear wheel needs to be addressed. I see the notion here is that you need grip on the rear wheel and speed on the front - or a variation of that. Well, the front wheel requires much more grip than the rear wheel will ever need. Braking is mostly done with the front wheel (80 to 90% of braking force comes from the front wheel) and that force is many, many times larger than the torque you can apply to accellerate your bike. Simply put, only once you can accellerate faster than you can stop would you need more traction on the back than on the front. This goes completely in the face of what people think should be obvious and this is the card that tyre marketers play. Centre line traction on a front wheel is extremely important. Luckily any old tyre pattern except for long spiky knobblies provide that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreZA Posted October 2, 2008 Share So if you do have the option like with GEAX mezcals' date='speed or grip.Should you go with more grip on the front and speed at the back? [/quote'] likw I mentioned in my observation with Mountain Kings that has that option aswell. What's the point to mix them. If you do, the traction tyre will slow you down with the more resistance so you might aswell do both traction then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDEE Posted October 2, 2008 Share I will be honest here... I put mine on the way I think they look the best An they always go on the same way because I cannot abide the skewers being on diff sides of the frame.. I suspect that there are a lot more peeps out who do the same here than will admit.. Being honest again, I am far too slow uphill and in corners for all this talk about traction and grip to have an effect on my cheap ass Kenda Komodos.. The debate is fascinating though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nochain Posted October 2, 2008 Share So if you do have the option like with GEAX mezcals' date='speed or grip.Should you go with more grip on the front and speed at the back? [/quote'] likw I mentioned in my observation with Mountain Kings that has that option aswell. What's the point to mix them. If you do, the traction tyre will slow you down with the more resistance so you might aswell do both traction then. I see a lot of people ride different tyres on the front than on the back and you get people that tell you to for instance ride the monorail on the front and the crossmark at the back....why is that then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumbleweed Posted October 2, 2008 Share An they always go on the same way because I cannot abide the skewers being on diff sides of the frame.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreZA Posted October 2, 2008 Share You want grip on the front tyre, not traction. If you go into a corner you want the wheel to grip on the sides not have for resistance when going in a straight line. But I can be wrong, I did not go get my degree from www.smartassuniversity.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markStockton Posted October 2, 2008 Share Being honest again' date=' I am far too slow uphill and in corners for all this talk about traction and grip to have an effect on my cheap ass Kenda Komodos..[/quote'] Kenda Komodos, best bang for buck around, low rolling resistance, fair grip and last forever. Solid side wall's, probably damage the rock before picking up a rip, and best of all crazy cheap. Only downside, really, really heavy, and like that really matters for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtrider Posted October 2, 2008 Share Johann you are very funny some times . But maybe we should look at the nobbly next to the swiss cross and decide it direction gonna change the traction ? Oooo wait you already explained that it doesn't . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intern Posted October 2, 2008 Share We are both clearly better off without each other. Feel the love' date=' Dude.[/quote'] There is a lot of love in this room. Just soaking it up, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shebeen Posted October 2, 2008 Share <?: PREFIX = O />This particular tyre's predecessor didn't have the Swiss Cross since obviously the scientists at the lab haven't yet discovered the superior properties of traction on the Swiss flag. It's a neutral tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nochain Posted October 2, 2008 Share You want grip on the front tyre' date=' not traction. If you go into a corner you want the wheel to grip on the sides not have for resistance when going in a straight line. But I can be wrong, I did not go get my degree from www.smartassuniversity.com [/quote'] Ok so the GEAX mezcals look to be more of a "fast" tyres with not much grip.Would it then be better to fit something with more grip on the front?Going on what is said here it won't help to change the front GEAX around to more grip?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreZA Posted October 2, 2008 Share I still want to see some of our pros or pro wannabes to actually "engineer" their own tread from an existing tyre on the market. Why not remove some of the knobbies when they are not needed. I'm sure the manufacturers will be interested in the findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted October 2, 2008 Share You want grip on the front tyre' date=' not traction. If you go into a corner you want the wheel to grip on the sides not have for resistance when going in a straight line. But I can be wrong, I did not go get my degree from www.smartassuniversity.com [/quote'] Mampara, grip and traction is the same thing. There is no way of differentiating between them in science and they use the same units when measured. Lefty did a nice description of grip/traction vs adhesion. The rolling resistance of a tyre is a function of the thickness of the rubber, which includes the tube, sidewall (with its fibres) and thread. It is not a function of its tread pattern except for extreme cases which don't apply here. Should a tyre be a bit bald in the centre, that section will have lower rolling resistance than other sections where there is still a lot of rubber left, but since rolling resistance has nothing to do with traction, it is irrelevant in our debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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