Training wheels and Racing wheels

[butafly]

Training on heavier wheels does not make you stronger' date=' it just makes you ride slower. Probably the best reason for having a spare set of wheels just for racing is the convenience of having a backup in case you damage something close to race day. It also adds to your peace of mind if they are set up with new rubber and checked before the event.[/quote']

was waiting for this to come out - its all in the head, heavy training bike just means you ride slower and your workrate remains the same. initially when you return to your lighter racing machine you will feel different and faster but you will still get just as tired climbing on your lighter bike as on the heavier one.

[butafly]

Hey hubbers' date=' a few weeks back I saw a link on the hub to a site where they experimented with the weight of a bike when climbing. I can't seem to find that post with the link

Any help?

I remember the slowest time for the cyclist was when they filled the wheel with water. 

They also taped a 1kg botle of water to the frame of the bike. Can't remember the other ways to put weight on.

[/quote']

 

from Cyclingnews.com

 

Training on a heavier bike

I just thought I would respond to Scott Saifer's response to the gentleman who inquired about training on a heavier bike. The gentleman had asked if training on a heavier bike was a viable training technique, to which Scott responded that it would be "silly" to do so. My question to Scott is why is it not a viable training method? Maybe a better question to ask would be, why do the pro's switch to a lighter weight bike when racing, especially during the mountain stages?

Personally I don't want to train on a heavier bike since part of the joy of cycling is riding a nice light bike, but I have to disagree with Scott if he is implying that there would be no positive training result(not just psychological) from riding a heavier bike and then switching to a lighter bike for races. I would even argue that the SAID principle would justify the added resistance training on a heavier bike would provide.

Jason Charlebois

Scott Saifer replies:

The training effect will be determined by the cadence and pressure on the pedals. Ride the light bike a bit faster or the heavy bike a bit slower and you get the same effect.

In fact, the SAID principle dictates that training on the lighter bike will be more effective if one will race on the lighter bike, no? A heavy bike that resists pedaling force more or a lighter bike that leaps away with each pedal stroke require different combinations of muscular efforts and feedback. Many riders already have trouble maintaining force on the pedals at high cadences. Why lose out on the possibility of correcting that by riding a bike that makes it artificially easy.

Again, I've not said that training on a heavy bike is detrimental. Only that it adds no benefit. There is one exception. If for some reason a rider insists on training with much weaker riders as a group, the stronger rider might benefit by adding resistance artificially, but he or she would also be better off finding a more compatible group, or simply pushing a slower rider on the hills.

Dave Fleckenstein replies:

We've had a number of responses to Scott's reply along these same lines. The truth is that bike weight has very little to do with the work that we do on the bike (expressed in watts) and more to do with the speed. If I am riding at 350W, I can train at that level on a light bike and go faster, or train on a heavy bike and go slower, either way it is the same wattage. Bike weight does not necessarily increase resistance, the gearing and force that we apply to the pedal does.

My experience in looking at power files is that on heavier bikes, there is no change in wattage, just gear selection. So when we talk about resistance training it is easy to think adding weight on the bike is like putting more weights on a barbell when in reality, it is gear selection and force that determines the load resistance in cycling.

[JPW#]

Racing wheels also make you...."feel" faster so.... buy a nice set of mavic's hehe

[GoLefty!!]

The issue with micro accelerations is that one needs several sample points for the rotational speed per revolution.

Most equipment aonly measures at 1 point per revolution' date=' so this in act is actually comparing the time taken per rev and not the the time taken per segment of the revolution.

If you could arrange sensors at regular intervals at say 30degrees then it would be possible to measure the micro accelerations.

[/quote']

 

Tim, when you guys gave me a hard time on Warthogs I thought of this but you still sit with the same problem. The instrument (bike computer) will only measure RPM, in other words average out the pulses from the magnets. If you were to put many magnets on there and then divide the RPM by the number of magnets, you're back to RPM again.

 

You need a different instrument that will measure time between pulses.

 

This is not a garage operation and I'm not spending money on something I can prove with math.

 

 

 

 

Its not a simple device and requires programming and ahardware that can measure time in the sector of the circle. One magnet, many sensors, each with an identity.

You would need to measure the time taken for the magnet to travel from sensor to sensor and plot the rise and fall on an oscilloscope. No cycle computer or power meter will give you information to that sensitivity. This machine would have to be built.

 

these would be very small but it would perhaps shed some light on the "feeling" of difference in performance of lighter vs heavier wheels. the human body is a very sensitive machine so the "feeling" should not be underestimated.

 

All the math is using the average values and that does show a negligable difference.

Yet a difference can be felt.

 

So not arguing against you, because I have done the  math and I cannot fault your arguement, but there is something missing.

 

For wheel weights were the difference is 100gr I cannot feel the difference " but somehow if that difference is 500gr, then it's "felt" more than an extra 500gr in the back pack or on the frame. I've checked this on my MTB, on the main uphill drag in Tokai.

In terms of total energy output you are correct, it's negligable. But I could "feel" the extra weight despite using a similar amount of calories

[GoLefty!!]

Hey hubbers' date=' a few weeks back I saw a link on the hub to a site where they experimented with the weight of a bike when climbing. I can't seem to find that post with the link

Any help?

I remember the slowest time for the cyclist was when they filled the wheel with water. 

They also taped a 1kg botle of water to the frame of the bike. Can't remember the other ways to put weight on.

[/quote']

 

from Cyclingnews.com

 

Training on a heavier bike

I just thought I would respond to Scott Saifer's response to the gentleman who inquired about training on a heavier bike. The gentleman had asked if training on a heavier bike was a viable training technique, to which Scott responded that it would be "silly" to do so. My question to Scott is why is it not a viable training method? Maybe a better question to ask would be, why do the pro's switch to a lighter weight bike when racing, especially during the mountain stages?

Personally I don't want to train on a heavier bike since part of the joy of cycling is riding a nice light bike, but I have to disagree with Scott if he is implying that there would be no positive training result(not just psychological) from riding a heavier bike and then switching to a lighter bike for races. I would even argue that the SAID principle would justify the added resistance training on a heavier bike would provide.

Jason Charlebois

Scott Saifer replies:

The training effect will be determined by the cadence and pressure on the pedals. Ride the light bike a bit faster or the heavy bike a bit slower and you get the same effect.

In fact, the SAID principle dictates that training on the lighter bike will be more effective if one will race on the lighter bike, no? A heavy bike that resists pedaling force more or a lighter bike that leaps away with each pedal stroke require different combinations of muscular efforts and feedback. Many riders already have trouble maintaining force on the pedals at high cadences. Why lose out on the possibility of correcting that by riding a bike that makes it artificially easy.

Again, I've not said that training on a heavy bike is detrimental. Only that it adds no benefit. There is one exception. If for some reason a rider insists on training with much weaker riders as a group, the stronger rider might benefit by adding resistance artificially, but he or she would also be better off finding a more compatible group, or simply pushing a slower rider on the hills.

Dave Fleckenstein replies:

We've had a number of responses to Scott's reply along these same lines. The truth is that bike weight has very little to do with the work that we do on the bike (expressed in watts) and more to do with the speed. If I am riding at 350W, I can train at that level on a light bike and go faster, or train on a heavy bike and go slower, either way it is the same wattage. Bike weight does not necessarily increase resistance, the gearing and force that we apply to the pedal does.

My experience in looking at power files is that on heavier bikes, there is no change in wattage, just gear selection. So when we talk about resistance training it is easy to think adding weight on the bike is like putting more weights on a barbell when in reality, it is gear selection and force that determines the load resistance in cycling.

 

Which is one does not need to train on hills to be a good climber in a hilly race...

[Minion]

You can measure acceleration using just magnets and a pick-up. Measuring the time between pulses gives acceleration: increasing time intervals = deceleration, decreasing time intervals = acceleration.

The problem with this method is resolution - you're limited to, at most, 18 pulses per revolution (one magnet per non-drive side spoke on a 36 spoke wheel) and likely even fewer on a more exotic wheel.

You could get around the resolution problem by using an optical encoder. One of these would be simple to rig up on the non-drive side of the wheel and could give around 180+ pulses per revolution. A similar idea could be used to accurately measure the speed of the cranks.

It should be fairly simple to build a circuit that records and stores the time between pulses. It could even be set up to calculate the changes in speed.

I would be surprised if the cost of such a test setup went above R1000.

 

What this setup doesn't include is a way of measuring torque. It might be possible to use a Powertap and pick-up the raw signal from the unit. The downside to this is that the ANT+ developers kit costs around $700.

 

[turtlek]

guys my racing wheels are heavier than my training wheels and yes i can feel a difference but its all in the wind pushing me side to side with my cosmic carbones

 

 

 

all this technical jabber just confuses me more why doesn't everyone just go ride thier bikes!!!!!!

[Minion]

 

from Cyclingnews.com

Training on a heavier bike

 

The comment below' date=' again from the Zipp site, mentions why they don't recommend using aero wheels as training wheels. This reasoning could be extended to why you might need separate training wheels if you have aero racing wheels and also why you might want to train on a heavier bike.

 

[quote=http://www.zipp.com/support/askjosh/carbonwheels.php#]

We only recommend training on your aero wheels if you are training with

power. Since most people train by speed or on group rides, training

with your aero wheels just makes you ride less hard and burn fewer

calories than training on std wheels, so we discourage training on any

aero wheels unless you are training exclusively by power.

[Minion]

 

why doesn't everyone just go ride thier bikes!!!!!!

Because it's dark and currently rather damp outside?

 

[turtlek]

 

why doesn't everyone just go ride thier bikes!!!!!!

Because it's dark and currently rather damp outside?

 

 

 

Grab a light and a rain jacket and if you really want to grab a mudguard

[Christie]

I think the best option would be to train your mind to think your current wheels (& bike for that matter) are lighter, because if you think it is lighter, that seems to hold the most promise for going faster. Least amount of money spent for best gain? 

[Battler]

My training wheels are exactly just that....

 

 

 

The wheels I use on the indoor trainer - I don't want my new DT Swiss beauties (in white nogal) getting hammered on the IDT.

 

 

 

 

[fr0sT!e]

so what your really trying to tell me is that mathematically it doesnt make sense to spend R20k on a pair of racing wheels

[splat]

i would think. buy very good racing wheels' date=' and ride it all the time. get your moneys worth out of them. stop thinking like an idiot.....you know how they think? they the ones that will buy sh*t expensive things, and not use them, just incase they want to sell them again. Another thing, buy those ecpensive racing wheels, put them on your bike, and get that feeling everytime you ride, get intemit with them, gete passionate with them, and during a race, you will know exactly how well they will stop you.

TRAINING WHEELS were invented to Extract more money form you....Remember the phrase....A FOOL AND HIS MONEY ARE SOON PARTED!!!!!!....    ride your bike my friend and forget what some Twats have to say, chances are good they have training weels for sale

[/quote']

 

Check out his feelings on Training wheels:

https://www.bikehub.co.za/forum_posts.asp?TID=35124&KW=

 

Oh,  and check your spelling before you post your reply.

splat2008-10-20 10:46:11

[Minion]

 

so what your really trying to tell me is that mathematically it doesnt make sense to spend R20k on a pair of racing wheels

Mathematically, it does. The wheels will make you faster by being lighter and more aerodynamic (while being fragile enough that you can't ride them every day).

Realistically, the overall performance gains are generally small in comparison to other factors. But...

 

Realistically, it doesn't make sense for most of us to buy a bike for more than R10,000.

Realistically, it doesn't make sense to drive any sedan more expensive than a Toyota Corolla.

 

I say screw reality and buy what makes you happy.

 

[Christie]

Well said, Edman