Raleigh RC6000 or Scott Speedster S20

[Prince]

Solo, good balanced argument.

[Eugene]

I?m not a <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Raleigh fan for 2 reasons. 1) Everybody rides one and 2) I think their colour schemes are pretty unimaginative (except the ill fated 2007 Team).

 

However, my logic is simple; if a Raleigh is good enough to give SA?s top riders countless wins (Langer, Impey, Evans, White etc, etc) then a Raleigh is good enough for the rest of us. I?m willing to say that 90% of us who buy these fancy bikes do so because we want to, not because we get any benefit from them. Most people who buy Cervelos, Colnagos etc wouldn?t even be able to tell the difference between them and a Raleigh if they rode blind folded (me included).

 

So, to label a Raleigh a bike for the masses is probably correct, but at least those masses havn?t spent thousands on perceived quality that they are unable to use. Kinda like those people that insist on paying R500 000 plus for an Audi Q7 or BMW X5 and never take the thing off road. Don?t get me wrong, I also ride a bike that is too expensive for my abilities, but I bought it because I wanted it, not because I thought it would improve my times.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[Gumpole]

Solo why would a 'distribution' company design carbon bicycles???

 

I am not saying that raleigh is the best bike but what you are saying is like:

 

"I took my BSc and went for a job interview at Forsdicks BMW, they told me I was overqualified for the job. Therefore BMW is a crap car coz I'm too good to design one"...

 

[Willehond]

OK firstly, I ride a RC6000 and it does the job beautifully.  I ride SV league and I promise you that it is the cheapest bike out there, but I'm not the last guy over the line!  The Raleigh is a solid bike with solid Shimano components.

 

I think that if you look at th sub-R10K price range, you HAVE to buy a Raleigh and here is my reasoning:  Buying a cheap Scott is like buying a basic BMW 318.  It shows you actually wanted a real BMW, but don't have the money to afford a proper one you can be proud of!  Buying a Raleigh is like buying a nice Golf that does what it needs to do and gets things done. If you WANT to buy a BMW buy an in-your-face M3.   If you buy Scott or Trek or Giant, get the PROPER carbon bling ones or else get the Raleigh, otherwise you are just a sad cheap wannabe!!!  For a sub-R10k bike the Raleigh, ironically, is therefore the class bike to get!

 

 

Willehond2007-10-31 06:43:47

[Brandon Els]

My last bike was a Raleigh RC9000. Aluminium bike with the carbon rear stay and front fork. As I am a design engineer I have a pretty good under standing of structural strengths' date=' dynamics of motion, etc. My take is that Raleigh is fine for entry level bicycles and your average cyclist. However if you are looking at a top of the range bike in order to race aggressively and allow your bike to last you many years like a properly designed bike should, then stay away from buying Raleigh's and other brands that are not well known or tested.

I am currently riding a Cervelo Soloist Carbon and if you compare the flex at the BB between the 2 bikes you will be amazed to see just how poor the stiffness of the RC9000 can be.

 

The new RC6000 carbon frames had major problems with the frame as they were all cracking in the same place, on the left hand chainstay. I have seen this myself in a friends bike. The problem with carbon is that it is very, very stiff and strong in one direction, but 90 degrees to this it is as pap as a piece of spagetti and only has the strenght of the resin which hold it together (not much at all). Therefore the only way, to correctly engineer a carbon bike in order to bring out the full potential of carbon and make it safe is to use FEA (Finite Element Analysis) computer software to analyse the stiffness, fatigue limit and strength of the frame under normal riding conditions. Unfortunately very few carbon bike manufacturers do this, I strongly doubt Raleigh did this and if they did, then they came up short in their calculations.

 

4 years ago there was a post advertised for a design engineer at the company that distribute, build and sell Raleighs in South Africa. At that stage I had 2 years experience in the design field. I have a B.Eng degree from Stellenbosch University, I was told I was over-qualified for the job. I later learned they hired someone with no formal engineering training to spec there bikes and do the designs they were responsible for. I did some more research into the way they performed there designs and let's just say that I was shocked. So I stick to what I say before, Raleigh's are finie for the masses, but high end bikes that you are going to race at 100km/h with balls to the wall aggression, rather spend a bit more money and get something that is correctly engineered and that you can find properly documented engineering data on (e.g. check out the engineering notes on the cervelo website - these guys know what they are doing).

 

At the end of the day, whatever bike you buy you need to ask yourself just one question:

 

When I am hurtling down a mountain pass at 90km/h and all that is between me and the bone-crushing tar is about 7kg of man-made-designed material, do I trust the people that designed it, built it, tested it, marketed it and sold it or did I blindly try and squeeze as much out of the budget I had in order to get something that could end my cycling career and life right here, right now?

[/quote']

 

Solo - I am happy for you to Raleigh bash, but please get your facts straight! Our product manager's name is Jan Begemann. He has served on Shimano's design council and advises people like DT Swiss on design issues. He has 10 years experience as a bicycle product manager including European brands. He hails from Hamburg and was a the crit champ of Hamburg and 2nd in Germany.

 

You may have to accept one day that their is a South African company that knows as much as your favourite brand, but till then when you bash Raleigh please get your facts straight.

 

You are welcome to call Jan Begemann at any time on 082 562 4540 or myself 083 458 5552.

 

Cheers. Brandon.

 

[Willehond]

Solo why would a 'distribution' company design carbon bicycles???

 

I am not saying that raleigh is the best bike but what you are saying is like:

 

"I took my BSc and went for a job interview at Forsdicks BMW' date=' they told me I was overqualified for the job. Therefore BMW is a crap car coz I'm too good to design one"...

 

[/quote']

I applied at Teazers for a job, but they said I was over qualified (apparently I have too much between my legs!)

 

Still think they have the best product...

Willehond2007-10-31 06:54:05

[javadude]

Solo, considering the brilliance of the Cervelo engineers they must have been especially embarrassed when they had to recall their R2.5's due to the following flaw:

 

Hazard: The bicycle frames can loosen or separate, causing the rider to lose control, fall and be injured.(http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06269.html) 

[ewep]

 

Solo why would a 'distribution' company design carbon bicycles???

 

I am not saying that raleigh is the best bike but what you are saying is like:

 

"I took my BSc and went for a job interview at Forsdicks BMW' date=' they told me I was overqualified for the job. Therefore BMW is a crap car coz I'm too good to design one"...

 

[/quote']

I applied at Teazers for a job, but they said I was over qualified (apparently I have too much between my legs!)

 

Still think they have a the best product though...

 

ARRRGGGGHHHHH. I was in Teazers when you did your audition.  Spent MILLIONS on my rehab, and now it's all back.  Pass the 9mm PLEASE!

 

[Brandon Els]

My last bike was a Raleigh RC9000. Aluminium bike with the carbon rear stay and front fork. As I am a design engineer I have a pretty good under standing of structural strengths' date=' dynamics of motion, etc. My take is that Raleigh is fine for entry level bicycles and your average cyclist. However if you are looking at a top of the range bike in order to race aggressively and allow your bike to last you many years like a properly designed bike should, then stay away from buying Raleigh's and other brands that are not well known or tested.

I am currently riding a Cervelo Soloist Carbon and if you compare the flex at the BB between the 2 bikes you will be amazed to see just how poor the stiffness of the RC9000 can be.

 

The new RC6000 carbon frames had major problems with the frame as they were all cracking in the same place, on the left hand chainstay. I have seen this myself in a friends bike. The problem with carbon is that it is very, very stiff and strong in one direction, but 90 degrees to this it is as pap as a piece of spagetti and only has the strenght of the resin which hold it together (not much at all). Therefore the only way, to correctly engineer a carbon bike in order to bring out the full potential of carbon and make it safe is to use FEA (Finite Element Analysis) computer software to analyse the stiffness, fatigue limit and strength of the frame under normal riding conditions. Unfortunately very few carbon bike manufacturers do this, I strongly doubt Raleigh did this and if they did, then they came up short in their calculations.

 

4 years ago there was a post advertised for a design engineer at the company that distribute, build and sell Raleighs in South Africa. At that stage I had 2 years experience in the design field. I have a B.Eng degree from Stellenbosch University, I was told I was over-qualified for the job. I later learned they hired someone with no formal engineering training to spec there bikes and do the designs they were responsible for. I did some more research into the way they performed there designs and let's just say that I was shocked. So I stick to what I say before, Raleigh's are finie for the masses, but high end bikes that you are going to race at 100km/h with balls to the wall aggression, rather spend a bit more money and get something that is correctly engineered and that you can find properly documented engineering data on (e.g. check out the engineering notes on the cervelo website - these guys know what they are doing).

 

At the end of the day, whatever bike you buy you need to ask yourself just one question:

 

When I am hurtling down a mountain pass at 90km/h and all that is between me and the bone-crushing tar is about 7kg of man-made-designed material, do I trust the people that designed it, built it, tested it, marketed it and sold it or did I blindly try and squeeze as much out of the budget I had in order to get something that could end my cycling career and life right here, right now?

[/quote']

 

Solo - I have just looked at your CV again. The job was for an assistant to Victor Momsen who was the product manager at the time and you are correct that for an assistant that we wanted to train we felt that you had more work experience than we wanted at the time. In fact I have the e mails still I sent you.

 

Please be careful to choose a forum like this to start making accusations. Also your statements could be viewed as an impairment of the value of the Raleigh brand.

 

Raleigh is happy to be slagged off and most of us here are the kinda guys that roll with the punches and we go forward regardless of distractions.

 

Keep to facts or I may call on you to provide evidence of your public false assertions.

 

Cheers. Brandon.

 

[Willehond]

Solo why would a 'distribution' company design carbon bicycles???

 

I am not saying that raleigh is the best bike but what you are saying is like:

 

"I took my BSc and went for a job interview at Forsdicks BMW' date=' they told me I was overqualified for the job. Therefore BMW is a crap car coz I'm too good to design one"...

 

[/quote']

I applied at Teazers for a job, but they said I was over qualified (apparently I have too much between my legs!)

 

Still think they have a the best product though...

ARRRGGGGHHHHH. I was in Teazers when you did your audition.  Spent MILLIONS on my rehab, and now it's all back.  Pass the 9mm PLEASE!

 

Haven't you heard?  I recently shaved my legs!  Much better now and will PM you next time I plan to get hold of a greasy pole...

[Solo]

Hi Brandon

 

Just one question from my side then.The person you hired in that position (I still have the ad somewhere), he was a bike mechanic and sales person before he came to you right? From the job descrition, he would have been responsible for the design of frame including the sourcing of the tubing, etc from overseas suppliers, I think Taiwan was it? What foundation of engineering knowledge did he base his designs on? Unless, he then performed another job when he joined you.

 

Are you saying that the carbon frames in your range were designed by Probike? Which software program do you use for your structural analysis?

[ewep]

 

Solo why would a 'distribution' company design carbon bicycles???

 

I am not saying that raleigh is the best bike but what you are saying is like:

 

"I took my BSc and went for a job interview at Forsdicks BMW' date=' they told me I was overqualified for the job. Therefore BMW is a crap car coz I'm too good to design one"...

 

[/quote']

I applied at Teazers for a job, but they said I was over qualified (apparently I have too much between my legs!)

 

Still think they have a the best product though...

 

ARRRGGGGHHHHH. I was in Teazers when you did your audition.  Spent MILLIONS on my rehab, and now it's all back.  Pass the 9mm PLEASE!

 

Haven't you heard?  I recently shaved my legs!  Much better now and will PM you next time I plan to get hold of a greasy pole...

 

9mm, 9mm, 9mm, 9mm, ANYONE!!!!

 

[ewep]

Popcorn anyone?  Turboman has made some....  First watch the fight, then 9mm please

[Brandon Els]

Hi Brandon

 

Just one question from my side then.The person you hired in that position (I still have the ad somewhere)' date=' he was a bike mechanic and sales person before he came to you right? From the job descrition, he would have been responsible for the design of frame including the sourcing of the tubing, etc from overseas suppliers, I think Taiwan was it? What foundation of engineering knowledge did he base his designs on? Unless, he then performed another job when he joined you.

 

Are you saying that the carbon frames in your range were designed by Probike? Which software program do you use for your structural analysis?

[/quote']

 

The person hired was Stephen Craddock and he was never used on bikes because of inexperience - he was used as an assistant on P&A sourcing. Most bike companies around the world use Solidworks for the basic shape of the tubes as we do and the structural strength is tested using CATIA which is owned by our frame vendors once we pass on design. Its also used by Boeing, F1 teams and more - Jan is the expert here not me.

 

All bike companies get their carbon from only 2 sources ex Japan and I am sure you know the story on the weights on the different weaves.

 

If you are trying to assert your knowledge using Raleigh purely because it comes from an SA company - well we are increasingly also sourcing our staff ex Europe to train local.

 

Please keep paying more for the same.

 

Cheers. Brandon.

 

[AndreZA]

Brandon, don't you guys want freelance paint scheme designers? Can we submit something?

 

 

[ewep]

 

Brandon, you need IT guys down there?  Permanent?  Or any other pos?

 

ewep2007-10-31 07:23:47