Paul Ruinaard

In Braamfontein next to wits?

Looks like a Maserati valve cover. Holy mother of god - can you imagine the noise?

This could be a wallpaper

what i was going to say - I have given him and some of the Choc Cows guys all my bits - as long as for charity its free

That looks like my old frame. I bought it second hand but it was too small. Always lusted after a Lynskey.

Lekker post guy. Was there myself and saw a honey unloading a Santa Cruz and was envious . Amazing how pretty that track can be on a good day.

Methinks this has finally run its course. Recharge the handbags and lets await the next doper we can crucify

yes - they are further down - need to run to a meeting. This is a big thread but its there.

Hmm, and defending his wife for defending him, - assuming she didn't know? Its pretty interesting to see all this now being scrutinised in a very harsh way. Remember Lance's wife and the fact that she knew all along and struggled to live with it and has distanced herself from him in a big way. So there are many other aspects of this sorry tale. If she did know - then she was also implicated. If she didn't know - what else doesn't she know about him

Which is a subject that I wanted to introduce but backed away from. You need to have some serious issues aka almost be psychopathic, to be able to do this. Paddy Upton (Google him if you dont know him) did a nice piece on this wrt psychopathy is sportsmen and in business and the damage they do and used Lance as an example. It really made me think a little bit about the behaviours we admire and see as desirable aka "successful" people. This is the text book example of what he said these people would do and how they are able to manipulate opinions around them...

Although, and it has been pointed out here multiple times, the court of public opinion has a lot lower level of burden of proof and is much quicker to judge as well as forget actually. Lets use the case of Cycle Science who have closed their doors after the Pinarello case, and I dont see their signage up the road any more where they tried to move to. People seem to quickly distrust other people who may have demonstrated character flaws in other areas.

Twitter is in shite cause of seriously bad management and egos. Business model is pretty sound but the US stock markets are ruthless mate.

This is what i was trying to point out earlier. HKGK - people have long memories..... Never mind the clauses he would have signed in his contracts which would have specifically described penalties for doping and possible recoveries of sponsorship monies paid.... The water is getting warmer...

aha thanks for the clarification. Like I said I am not the legal genius but i could see common cause amount some of the parties involved.....

Sure agreed. Technically there were people blowing the whistle prior to the admission? See the handbag war on twitter. Which was then repudiated by some of the parties involved through their counsel. FWIW and not sure if i am teaching you to suck eggs but it is a particular class of law suit, where the person who makes the US IRS services aware of a fraud and they successfully prosecute , that person can be a beneficiary to the tune of a percentage of the reward. Its a US thing, not sure its applicable here and it doesn't need you to be the first person to "blow the whistle" if you get what i am saying. This one has many parallels...... Any many parties aggrieved, who may see common cause. Then they get together and share costs. Also sometimes seen as a class action - US Law thrives on these. So really not sure if it could happen here... But there was an international event, so jurisdiction of international courts could be applicable to that. You see how this gets ugly quickly

NIce idea however i think legally apologies are an admission of guilt open you to all sorts of legal consequences so unless you want to be liable aka Lance for fraud, perjury etc and the possible ramifications of that whole lot, so any legal person would tell you to stay quiet no matter how much you want to say sorry. Maybe that is the reason for the very thin story...... And it seems like legal advice is what is causing this whole storm to have blown up. Damages done already are pretty considerable if you start to draw it out, so there are a lot of potential people who would be willing to take up cudgels and fund their own lawyers. I think there are class action suits now in South Africa although I am not sure they are applicable here. Also not enough of a legal beagle to know about whistle blower cases like the USA where as the initiator you can benefit. Floyd Landis is looking to fund is future out of the money they are clawing back from Lance. If I was Kevin I would also shut up and say nothing no matter how the twitter verse exploded and flamed him.

And as you say - over time when riding multi day events it goes downwards. So now go back to the 90's when there was no test for doping and the 50 level was the way they adjudged your fitness to ride. Every day you boosted the level back to just below 50 and then rode the day like a new person. Add in the other stuff they were using and its like starting close to fresh. So over a period of a grand tour the difference between the blood dopers and the non just become huge - hence the inability of anyone to stay even remotely close to the pace that wasn't on EPO as everyone was almost new the next day whilst they slowly had EPO levels drifting down. The era from about 1998 to mid to late 2000's show that clearly on average speeds. Now lest add this back to the local context of the Epic etc....

So far its the dopest thread of the year

Heres the thing - we clearly care about this stuff as this thread is now running 50 pages and its still getting more interesting and informative. This is a pretty fascinating topic and its pretty much a tragicomedy in the way that it has panned out with all nuances of the people involved having added their 2 cents along the way. Its like we all knew this was likely - we dreaded that it could be true and we hoped that it wasn't. But like in the movies the story has unravelled in such a way that it makes movie scripts and series look tame - their script writers could write this and we wouldn't watch it as we would say its too far fetched. I am continually fascinated by the psyche of the dopers as well as the righteous indignation they show when caught - this is what keeps me hooked on this topic - Lance, Kevin, Tyler, Rourke - basically all very similar.....

Always good to query what is accepted as fact - i will do some more digging now that you have spurred this line of thought . EPO was a wonder drug back in the 90's as was HGH - and totally undetectable AFAIK. I am not a Doctor just someone who has done some reading so find it all very interesting. The case for HGH is also pretty interesting in the early 90's. Flo Jo was the poster child of that: http://www.thehindu.com/2000/09/09/stories/0709075f.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Griffith_Joyner

Will have to do some detailed research but this is just straight up out of Google: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all NY Times is pretty authoritative reporting. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/feb/16/cycling.cycling1 Again - The Guardian is not a sensationalist rag.

Hmm not so sure of that - there was a spate of Dutch and Spanish cyclists in their 20's died in their sleep during the 90's. All elite level pros in Europe.

Wow - this is interesting. My US etc costs about $10 per month. Ebay here we come

Agreed - lets not tar and feather everyone. I retract my most and put in a some.

Been saying this a long time on all these threads since the pre-Lance days. If you had to get most of the faster guys in the field (lets say A bunch and Vets) and run some tests on them I predict you would be shocked what you would find. I reckon they could melt the test tubes with some of the concoctions they are using. These guys are cheque book warriors and as such there is no risk to them as you point out. And no real desire to police them as well, because its just recreational sports. A lot of the stories are anecdotal and there are some pretty lurid ones at that, and some are not so anecdotal and you sit there thinking "Did I really see that?"