Lance Armstrong Banned and Stripped of TDF Titles

[Tumbleweed]

However they do not provided sources, and full investigation results. Kinda like me telling you that you've done heinous things over the span of a decade and you will be executed if you do not proof otherwise within five days.... Ohh, and I won't provide my evidence...

 

He is set up for failure, and I agree with him/his lawyers. he is being set up to fail. The problem here is not whether he has doped or not, it is the procedural unfairness of the whole debacle

 

There are some links containing legal opinion on this thread that defend the procedures; the crux being that you can't appeal procedural unfairness until it has played out. Once again, he agreed to compete as an athlete under these regulations. He is therefore subject to them.

[Mellow]

However they do not provided sources, and full investigation results. Kinda like me telling you that you've done heinous things over the span of a decade and you will be executed if you do not proof otherwise within five days.... Ohh, and I won't provide my evidence...

 

He is set up for failure, and I agree with him/his lawyers. he is being set up to fail. The problem here is not whether he has doped or not, it is the procedural unfairness of the whole debacle

 

so the problem is the procedure not the fact that he doped and his team mates testified and he is guilty ? I think the procedure is only a problem because he is guilty.

 

i not even sure why people argue for his innocence anymore

Edited July 12, 2012 by Mellow

[mazambaan]

@TNT1; so if Merckx tested positive, why is he a hero now - best cyclist ever etc? Sure Hinault never tested positve; sounds like LA. Shouldn't WADA or whoever be investigatiing?

 

Seriously I'm not an LA fan but putting up with non-cyclists "Wiggo must have the good stuff; wonder what it is" and "Froome disappeared for 2 years; very suspicious" and after the TT; "UK Postal has the good stuff" is a little tedious. Also, to be honest, one has to wonder.

 

I think a good deal of it comes from the high profile that LA and his opposition have and seek in the press. Finding him guilty and banning him in perpetuity and beyond won't do much for the good name of cycling.

[Mellow]

@TNT1; so if Merckx tested positive, why is he a hero now - best cyclist ever etc? Sure Hinault never tested positve; sounds like LA. Shouldn't WADA or whoever be investigatiing?

 

Seriously I'm not an LA fan but putting up with non-cyclists "Wiggo must have the good stuff; wonder what it is" and "Froome disappeared for 2 years; very suspicious" and after the TT; "UK Postal has the good stuff" is a little tedious. Also, to be honest, one has to wonder.

 

I think a good deal of it comes from the high profile that LA and his opposition have and seek in the press. Finding him guilty and banning him in perpetuity and beyond won't do much for the good name of cycling.

 

Lets all turn a blind eye for the good of cycling ? Leaving the matter will do more harm. The message going out from all this is not for joe public, its for pro athletes and managers

[Christie]

A good thing about this case is that they are going after the doctors and managers too, for a change. I think these guys are a major source of trouble, but they always seem to keep on rolliing while the atheletes take the fall.

[SwissVan]

 

so the problem is the procedure not the fact that he doped and his team mates testified and he is guilty ? I think the procedure is only a problem because he is guilty.

 

 

 

One problem with the procedure IMHO is that it is largely based on witness evidence (or so it seems at the moment) of former team members or close associates. So far the only team members that we know for sure who testified against LA are ones who have reason to testify against him i.e. there is a history of bad blood between them and LA for a variety of reasons. Logic says this would be a good opportunity for them to get back at LA. But for some reason the likelihood of this probability is not considered. IMO people, courts, judges etc have far too much faith in the “I swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth…” thing.

 

To simplify it, if you had a successful career over the last 15 years and in the process of achieving this success had made some enemies along the way, and now these enemies were “testifying or making statements” against you, would you feel comfortable that their statements would be an accurate reflection of your career?

 

 

A good thing about this case is that they are going after the doctors and managers too, for a change. I think these guys are a major source of trouble, but they always seem to keep on rolliing while the atheletes take the fall.

 

Agreed, BUT wrt to the LA case, one wonders what kind of effect the USADA banning handed out to Dr Ferrari and crowd will really have on them?

Do they have the same clout as would WADA or UCI?

[Velouria]

Cyclismas is rapidly becoming my favourite blog:

 

The Legend of the 500

 

 

Lance is the most tested athlete, amateur or professional in the history of sport. We don’t know exactly the number but we think it’s around 300 separate tests that he’s undergone and he has never had a positive test.

Tim Herman, Lawyer to Lance Armstrong, July 2010

 

Throughout his twenty-plus year professional career, Mr. Armstrong has

been subjected to 500 to 600 drug tests without a single positive test

Civ. Action No. 1:12–cv–00606–SS July 2012

 

http://dimspace.co.uk/lancetesthistory.png

[Wyatt Earp]

Froome disappeared for 2 years;

 

Did he really, you coffee hasn't only gone cold, it's gone stale.

[Velouria]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-comments-on-usada-lifetime-bans

 

McQuaid: "“I’ve read what they’ve said but as they’re not licence holders so I don’t know how they can ban them or what they can be banned for”

I don't think Pat McQuaid even has a clue what is going on in his own organisation, let alone anyone else's:

 

UCI President Mistaken Over USADA Case:

 

“I’ve read what they’ve said but as they’re not licence holders so I don’t know how they can ban them or what they can be banned for”

 

“From the UCI’s point of view we can’t see how these guys can be sanctioned for life,” said McQuaid. “They are not UCI licence holders, so under what grounds can they be sanctioned?”

 

 

Those are the words of the Pat McQuaid, president of cycling’s governing body, the UCI. The first quote is after speaking to cyclingnews.com, the second is after speaking to Velonews. He was commenting today on the lifetime ban issued by the US Anti-Doping Agency to Luis Garcia del Moral, Michele Ferrari and Jose “Pepe” Martí, all three staff or helpers of the US Postal Cycling team.

 

 

Only President McQuaid needs to check the UCI rulebook . The anti-doping code applies to all licence holders, that is obvious. But Article 18 says it applies to all team staff as well, even if they have no team licence. So there are good grounds for the UCI to apply USADA’s ban worldwide.

 

Here is the relevant rule (my emphasis)

Non-License-Holders

 

18. 1. a ) Any Person who, without being a holder of a license, participates in a cycling Event in any capacity whatsoever, including, without limitation, as a rider, coach, trainer, manager, team director, team staff, agent, official, medical or para-medical personnel or parent and;

 

b ) Any Person who, without being a holder of a license, participates, in the framework of a club, trade team, national federation or any other structure participating in Races, in the preparation or support of riders for sports competitions; shall be subject to these Anti-Doping Rules and these Anti-Doping Rules shall apply to each such Person as they apply to a License-Holder.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Velouria

[Tumbleweed]

Agreed, BUT wrt to the LA case, one wonders what kind of effect the USADA banning handed out to Dr Ferrari and crowd will really have on them?

Do they have the same clout as would WADA or UCI?

 

WADA expects international compliance with Ferrari, Del Moral and Marti lifetime bans

 

 

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12368/WADA-expects-international-compliance-with-Ferrari-Del-Moral-and-Marti-lifetime-bans.aspx#ixzz20OoLq8tZ

[GrumpyOldGuy]

One problem with the procedure IMHO is that it is largely based on witness evidence (or so it seems at the moment) of former team members or close associates. So far the only team members that we know for sure who testified against LA are ones who have reason to testify against him i.e. there is a history of bad blood between them and LA for a variety of reasons. Logic says this would be a good opportunity for them to get back at LA. But for some reason the likelihood of this probability is not considered. IMO people, courts, judges etc have far too much faith in the “I swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth…” thing.

 

I know what you mean Swiss, but its not one witness, its ten, and thats going to be hard to overcome. When a judge is potentially faced with 10 people out there who will say he did it or they saw him do it, thats pretty strong evidence.

 

We also need to remember that witness testimony is accepted as proof and has convicted many people in court, Sandusky was convicted almost solely on witness testimony as the latest fairly high profile case.

 

I agree, bad blood could exist, but I dont think they can chance lying to the USADA, perjury is a major criminal offense especially in the USA and if it go's further and they are found to have committed perjury, they could be facing jail time, not sure they will risk that.

 

In my opinion the only thing that can save LA now is if the Judge decides to challenge USADA's procedures, but to be honest I cant see that either, these are procedures that have been used and tested in other cases with success so its hard to see how the judge will find fault there.

 

Either way, its actually a sad day for sport in general.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Cyclismas is rapidly becoming my favourite blog:

 

The Legend of the 500

 

 

Lance is the most tested athlete,

 

Yeah, its an interesting point Veloria, and the 500 number has been contested before.

 

It seems its a bit of a PR move by the LA camp or LA himself, from what I have read its closer to 100-200 and its suggested other athletes have been tested equally or more than that.

[Tumbleweed]

Yeah, its an interesting point Veloria, and the 500 number has been contested before.

 

It seems its a bit of a PR move by the LA camp or LA himself, from what I have read its closer to 100-200 and its suggested other athletes have been tested equally or more than that.

 

And he often uses this as further justification for the his claims of being "targetted". Er, dude, they normally test the leading guy more often than others…

[Wyatt Earp]

And he often uses this as further justification for the his claims of being "targetted". Er, dude, they normally test the leading guy more often than others…

 

Is that even a word ?

[Garfield2010]

http://www.superspor...doping_doubters

 

I just dont like the way this bloke reasons..... the same thing as LA did about never testing positive etc.

 

Why dont any one of them ever speak out against doping and say stuff like I dont dope cause it is cheating or we must fight for a clean sport etc... All we ever hear is the "but I have never tested positive" crappy argument which is not good enough anymore.

 

Also why is he so angry? He is almost implying that the races owes him the win?

 

Anyways, I didnt like yesterdays stage. The Sky SPRINTER Boassen Hagen was setting the pace on the highest mountain of the Tour and some of the specialist climbers could not even hang on even before Richie Porte took over.......

 

And the Froome/Wiggins partnership reminded me of Floydd and Lance of a few years back and we all saw how that ended up in terms of doping etc......

 

Just sayen

 

 

PS:- I hope Frank sets the tour alight today with Nibali!!

Edited July 12, 2012 by Garfield2010

[TNT1]

 

 

Anyways, I didnt like yesterdays stage. The Sky SPRINTER Boassen Hagen was setting the pace on the highest mountain of the Tour and some of the specialist climbers could not even hang on even before Richie Porte took over.......

 

 

 

 

Exactly the same as when Voigt and Cancelara set the pace in the mountains for Andy. Of course no one here said a peep, cause they all love cancelara so much.