Indurain says he still believes Armstrong is innocent

[dracs]

I read today that Valverde has also come out in support of Armstrong. There are now a number of riders past and present that contend that since he has not tested positive according to prescribed testing procedures that he is then innocent.

 

It seems that there still exists a culture of just don't get caught and that this is part of the game. With riders believing this to be how things are, and even supporting this position, is it any surprise that Armstrong has behaved as he has. According to the unwritten rules he is innocent. Not just innocent but a champion at the game

 

This more than anything fills me with pessimism and perhaps next year I will ride my bike more and watch bike racing less. First time I have felt like this. Don't blame the sponsors for pulling out anymore

But that is what some of us have been saying all along and taking abuse for it. You don't have to like or even accept the game - but don't pretend Armstrong was playing a different game to everyone else (and therefore treat him differently to everyone else...)

[E1A104]

But that is what some of us have been saying all along and taking abuse for it. You don't have to like or even accept the game - but don't pretend Armstrong was playing a different game to everyone else (and therefore treat him differently to everyone else...)

 

Go read all the charges USADA brought against lance and his cronies (yes, there were others involved and that kills the witch hunt allegations). Charges were NOT only for using was also for distributing etc.

[scuzzy]

Just a few (very random) quotes from USADA's decision:

 

 

Hamilton saw Armstrong using the “oil”, which was a mixture of olive oil and Andriol

(testosterone) developed by Dr. Ferrari, and on at least one occasion during the 1999 Tour

Armstrong squirted the “oil” in Hamilton’s mouth after a stage of the race (p 34)

 

… Floyd Landis also saw Armstrong receiving small doses of EPO to stimulate reticulocyte

production so as to attempt to mask the blood transfusion’ s impact on his blood values (p 64)

 

At the Puigcerdà training camp Floyd Landis saw Lance Armstrong “lying on a massage

table wearing a transdermal testosterone patch on his shoulder.” (p 69)

 

I haven't read the entire thing but it seems to be pretty detailed.

 

Ok, was just wondering, where can one get the full report

[Servetus]

Ok, was just wondering, where can one get the full report

 

Go to http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/ and click on "reasoned decision".

[dracs]

Testing is there so that sponsors kan think the riders don't cheat.

True story. And the fans.

[scotty]

Go read all the charges USADA brought against lance and his cronies (yes, there were others involved and that kills the witch hunt allegations). Charges were NOT only for using was also for distributing etc.

Lance has denied being a doper, he's never denied being a peddler, in fact brags about quite often.

[dracs]

Go read all the charges USADA brought against lance and his cronies (yes, there were others involved and that kills the witch hunt allegations). Charges were NOT only for using was also for distributing etc.

I have read it all mate and what I read supports my view. The interpretation of USADA as per their "reasoned decision" is all about what you contest - that Lance was somehow at the centre of it all, but if you read the actual statements of the riders who testified you will see comments like "there was a consensus in the team at the time that we would have to take EPO to complete" or "Frankie arranged to get me some EPO" etc etc.

Edited October 24, 2012 by dracs

[dracs]

Go to http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/ and click on "reasoned decision".

read the annexures as well - especially the emails and affidavits of the riders. As much as these are also selcted for their ability to sink Lance they will give you plenty perspective on how purvasive the culture was

[Lucky Luke.]

EXCELLENT ARGUMENT!!!

 

Lance failed many tests. 5 minutes of basic research will clear this misconception up for you.

[eddy]

 

Just my opinion.

 

In the end what happens happens and everyone will have their own views.

 

 

This is one of the problems with this debate.

 

Whilst you provide opinion, others are providing facts. There is a difference between the two and while you are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how misguided, you have to work off the same set of facts.

 

Much of what you are arguing about are about FACTS that are legally NOT in dispute.

 

Here is one example:

 

 

The USADA process followed is flawed.

 

 

 

This matter was conclusively dealt with by judge Sparks as early as 12 August in his judgement in the matter of Lance Armstrong vs Travis Tygard and the USADA heard in the US district court in Austin, Tx.

 

Notwithstanding some obiter comments about disclosure and motive, he finds for the defendants. In plain terms he found the USADA process contains sufficient safeguards for it to be the appropriate one to try the LA doping matter.

 

If LA or his lawyers felt the judge got it wrong, they were free to appeal all the way to the US Supreme Court. They didn't.

 

This is not merely an opinion, it is a fact that carries legal certainty.

 

Read the judgements, read the USADA Reasoned Descision , determine the facts and then form opinions.

 

Unless one starts with the facts, one is like a schoolboy at an astronomy conference insisting that his opinion that the world is flat is as valid as the fact that it has been shown to be round.

 

Gosh, i need more anti-troll muti.

 

Ps.

 

There are also FACTS about burden of proof, whether it has been met to the appropriate standard, whether only a positive dope test proves doping, whether the evidence was credible and corroborated, whether it was hearsay or not, whether LA was tested 500 times or not, whether he passed every test or not, etc.

Edited October 24, 2012 by eddy

[charlieh]

I think that what must really get the former team mates is that, they must have been pretty crap to also have doped and not been able to win! LOL I somehow don't think this is going to be the end. I think that Lance is going to get to the point where he will decide to take dawn everyone with him, then we'll truly see the extent of doping.

[HappyMartin]

Merckx has now withdrawn his support for Armstrong saying he is sickened by the revelations. He has also been very critical of the whistle blowers saying it is pointless to speak out so late and that they should have said something earlier.

[Tumbleweed]

Merckx has now withdrawn his support for Armstrong saying he is sickened by the revelations. He has also been very critical of the whistle blowers saying it is pointless to speak out so late and that they should have said something earlier.

 

That's big. He supported Lance during the cancer, and was close friends with him.

[ThaStig]

That is incorrect Hincapie, Zabriski, Leipheimer, Andreu etc never ever tested positive for drugs. These are just a few of the names of cyclists who have admitted taking drugs but have never been caught. And guess whose team they were all on?

Untrue; he tested positive for ephedrine in 1996. banned for 6months had to return winnings and jerseys etc.

[nochain]

Merckx has now withdrawn his support for Armstrong saying he is sickened by the revelations. He has also been very critical of the whistle blowers saying it is pointless to speak out so late and that they should have said something earlier.

He is basicly saying what all the other riders are saying....including Contador now

 

Quote from cyclingnews

Lance has been very correct all through his career," Merckx had told La Dernière Heure. "What more can he do? All of the controls that he has done - over 500 since 2000 - have come back negative. Either the controls don't serve any purpose or Armstrong was legit. The whole case is based on witnesses, it's deeply unjust."

[ThaStig]

Merckx has now withdrawn his support for Armstrong saying he is sickened by the revelations. He has also been very critical of the whistle blowers saying it is pointless to speak out so late and that they should have said something earlier.

have you read the whole interview or only the headlines? I read the interview and am more confused as to what the guy really said,it seems more like it was badly translated and then a bunch of quotes/excerpts were thrown together for effect.

Edited October 25, 2012 by ThaStig