Fake Pina's on Gumtree

[chris_w_65]

China is huge and a large chunk of the world have moved production there, yes its cheaper, but a lot of it is great as well, samsung, LG, Apple, IBM the list goes on, and hell yes there are plants that make crap( and some decent) copies. 30 years ago we considered products made in Japan cheap and nasty, now Japan makes serious quality.

 

But again the issue here is not the quality, it is the stolen IP from Pinarello.

 

 

 

My fiance's son is a director at a big steel company, he trades in steel. He visited 2 factories in China that are right next door to each other, the one was cheap and nasty and the other 100% quality. The cheap and nasty factory actually leaves voids (to save on materials) in what is supposed to be high quality stainless steel fittings for high pressure boilers, my old man is a pressure vessel engineer and the cheap stuff cannot be certified in South Africa or probably anywhere else in the world for big plants like Sasol, SAPPI and power stations.

[Garfield2010]

My fiance's son is a director at a big steel company, he trades in steel. He visited 2 factories in China that are right next door to each other, the one was cheap and nasty and the other 100% quality. The cheap and nasty factory actually leaves voids (to save on materials) in what is supposed to be high quality stainless steel fittings for high pressure boilers, my old man is a pressure vessel engineer and the cheap stuff cannot be certified in South Africa or probably anywhere else in the world for big plants like Sasol, SAPPI and power stations.

 

So what you are saying is that if it is spelled Pinnnarello then ride it at your own risk?

[andydude]

Did you know Coca Cola is still patent pending? The reason? If they actually patent it then the recipe needs to be revealed in order to ensure it is not copied. So they just keep pushing the patent process back. When it is pending it does not have to be revealed.

 

I've heard this, but is it true or just an urban legend? Do you have a source for this information?

[Kanga]

 

 

Did you know Coca Cola is still patent pending? The reason? If they actually patent it then the recipe needs to be revealed in order to ensure it is not copied. So they just keep pushing the patent process back. When it is pending it does not have to be revealed.

Possibly, we use a similar process to protect some of our IP. The beauty is they are protected from when they lodge the PCT patent application + others.

We can only keep it going for around 3 years, not sure how long Coke can do it if it is correct

Also they do not have to reveal the exact recipe but rather and example of a recipe to prove the claims they are make re the product/process etc being novel and provides some advantage other than financial

Edited January 3, 2013 by Kanga

[chris_w_65]

in the case of generic medicine and I may be wrong but they have a period of exclusivity but after x years (i think 5) other companies can use the recipe and make generic meds. However this is not the case in this specific example - where as in your example the same factory is selling to retailer and the public directly which is not the case. If you go to Macro and buy a TV it might be cheaper than at high end audio and visual shop but it is a different story if you are buying that TV off the back of a truck.

 

Generic medicine is not always the same. With the original they do a lot of testing, with generic they just have to prove that the same quantity of the active ingredient reaches the blood stream. In the case of anti depressants even though you have the active ingredient in your blood it may not react with your brain the same as the original. Like baking a cake, 2 people same ingredients but different result.

 

Did you know that the original company starts making their own clones that they sell for cheap when the generics come out? It is to compete with the generic market while they still continue to sell their original product to those who are prepared to pay for it.

[Coiser]

Pinarello is a private company and therefore I can't find their financial information, but let's look at Shimano (which also produces other products although bicycle parts are still 80% of sales). I'm doing this because it seems some of you says it ok to steal, because the companies make too much money.

 

Year ended Dec-11:

 

Assets Y216,000M

Sales Y221,770M

Net Income Y19,862M

 

That gives a net income margin of 9%. Now I wonder how many companies you hubbers work for sell products for less or more than a 9% net income margin?

 

I dont think any one says its ok to steal , I think it boils down to a 50k Pina being sold for 120k The opportunity for the majority of cyclist to own a Pina is taken away by the massive mark ups.

[JGR]

Generic medicine is not always the same. With the original they do a lot of testing, with generic they just have to prove that the same quantity of the active ingredient reaches the blood stream. In the case of anti depressants even though you have the active ingredient in your blood it may not react with your brain the same as the original. Like baking a cake, 2 people same ingredients but different result.

 

Did you know that the original company starts making their own clones that they sell for cheap when the generics come out? It is to compete with the generic market while they still continue to sell their original product to those who are prepared to pay for it.

I accept it isnt the same but was merely using it as an example in the context or buying something at a cheaper price than through the retailer in a legal way.

[Garfield2010]

I've heard this, but is it true or just an urban legend? Do you have a source for this information?

 

Nee, ek skiet absoluut uit die heup uit.

 

Also just heard it somewhere...............

[Kanga]

 

your opinion on other designs that arent as unique? but might look similar to other brands or have aspects that look the same? i am referring to unbranded of course

 

If there are unique looking features that might not be functional but that does differentiate the product they could get a design patent to protect it.

 

I.e. the coke bottle design is patented the actual shape and look, this is to prevent competitors to use a similar looking bottle, even if it does not present any clear technical advantages like required for a normal patent.

 

Indecently that bottle is genius, you can give it to a blind man and he can feel he has an actual Coke bottle in his hand, you can smash it and give someone a piece and the chances are good that he will identify it as a coke bottle.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Kanga

[JGR]

I dont think any one says its ok to steal , I think it boils down to a 50k Pina being sold for 120k The opportunity for the majority of cyclist to own a Pina is taken away by the massive mark ups.

You are only considering the manufacturing costs .......... let me use this example maybe. What makes a painting worth R100k or R1m? Surely the paint and canvas (raw materials) on a similar size picture would be similar yet it has nothing to do with the final price. In such a case the profile of the artisit, the marketing of the picture ect would contribute to the difference.

[Paul Ruinaard]

What always amazes me is how all these virtuous people appear to be concentrated on the hub. They all have a lily white record and don't have any fake goods they purchase, pay all theiR workers above the minimum wage and never ever seem to cross the white line when overtaking....

 

This seems like Nirvana, this hub land. I want to meet all these people...

 

FWIW, Chinese culture is thousands of years older than your much vaunted western democracy that protects IP for the benefit of the inventor. They don't actually recognize IP and as such you struggle to even explain the concept to them. Who am I to judge them?

 

Secondly if there was such a loss people would be going out of business.

 

Pinarello, well by the look of it, if you are making at R 5k and selling at R50k, then you are able to recover a lot of costs. Maybe enough to not worry about knock offs?

[JGR]

If they are unique looking features that might not be functional but that does differentiate the product they could get a design patent to protect it.

 

I.e. the coke bottle design is patented the actual shape and look, this is to prevent competitors to use a similar looking bottle, even if it does not present any clear technical advantages like required for a normal patent.

 

Indecently that bottle is genius, you can give it to a blind man and he can feel he has an actual Coke bottle in his hand, you can smash it and give someone a piece and the chances are good that he will identify it as a coke bottle.

The cans all seem the same to me? Also how could they, for example have a patent on the size of the base of the bottle for example?

[Paul Ruinaard]

 

You are only considering the manufacturing costs .......... let me use this example maybe. What makes a painting worth R100k or R1m? Surely the paint and canvas (raw materials) on a similar size picture would be similar yet it has nothing to do with the final price. In such a case the profile of the artisit, the marketing of the picture ect would contribute to the difference.

No painting is "worth" R 100m, or R 1m for that matter. It is only worth what some klutz is willing to pay for it. Help me to quantify the value of art. It is all a con.

[JGR]

What always amazes me is how all these virtuous people appear to be concentrated on the hub. They all have a lily white record and don't have any fake goods they purchase, pay all theiR workers above the minimum wage and never ever seem to cross the white line when overtaking....

 

This seems like Nirvana, this hub land. I want to meet all these people...

 

FWIW, Chinese culture is thousands of years older than your much vaunted western democracy that protects IP for the benefit of the inventor. They don't actually recognize IP and as such you struggle to even explain the concept to them. Who am I to judge them?

 

Secondly if there was such a loss people would be going out of business.

 

Pinarello, well by the look of it, if you are making at R 5k and selling at R50k, then you are able to recover a lot of costs. Maybe enough to not worry about knock offs?

Actually a number of people in this thread admitted to buying fake DVD's. Once again you only consider manufacturing costs ... if picknpay sell a loaf of bread for R8 but it costs R5 to make they dont make a profit of R3. You have to consider staff wages, rentals, marketing, advertising, distribution, storage ect.

[chris_w_65]

The cans all seem the same to me? Also how could they, for example have a patent on the size of the base of the bottle for example?

 

Do you know why a can's lid is smaller than the diameter of the can? The top and bottom have to hold all the pressure without failing so the bottom is dented inwards. The top has to be flat so needs a much thicker material so they taper the top of the can and save costs on the thicker top by reducing its size.

[JGR]

No painting is "worth" R 100m, or R 1m for that matter. It is only worth what some klutz is willing to pay for it. Help me to quantify the value of art. It is all a con.

it was a R100k and you only think that because it is not of interest to you. Go ask the man on the streeet if he would buy a bike worth more than his car and he would say you are mad! Their reaction would also be what idiot would be willing to pay that .... but it doesnt detract from the point, which is the value of an item is not determined by its manufacturing cost

Edited January 3, 2013 by JGR