Freedom challenge 2013 route access issues

[tubed]

As a general comment on this issue and having been exposed to it for more than a generation with my father having done sterling work over the years in ensuring that public rights of access were not simply ignored by developers in the rampant development of the cape peninsula in predominantly the 80's and 90's. He played a significant role in ensuring that hikers and now trail runners can have reasonable and unfettered access through among others the following areas, Baviaanskloof - Hout Bay, Ruyterplaats - Hout Bay and Constantia Nek/ Vlakkenberg - Hout Bay. He made himself very unpopular with developers, but as a condition of their development - they were required to continue to recognise and allow the public access to the mountain, despite the significant attempts to simply gate off access.

 

So what is happening in the Little Karoo and areas of the Great Karoo is of particular concern - there is both the legal route ie deproclamation of public roads such is the case with Sanbona and the borders of Anysberg, and then the approach which threatens, discourages and prevents public access by signage and locked gates.

 

The sad thing is that many innocent people who want to get from point to point are simply too scared to enforce their rights, they turn around and retreat - exactly what these unlawful land owners want you to do.

 

Please note I am not insensitive to genuine security concerns - but your privacy and in many cases exclusive commercial rights you seek were not assured when you purchased the land, you bought it subject to the public's right of access.

[Slowbee]

I don't know the difference in scale. All I know is that on the FC website there are sponsors logos and it costs quite a bit to take part in the FC. That aside I myself sympathise with individuals who want to enjoy that type of nature as much as we do, but the actions of the organisers don't help matters.

Anyway, thanks for all the chatter, but I reckon I should get some work done before the day is out!

 

I need to ask, are you a landowner ?

 

From the website you gave it seems there is more to this access story than meets the eye.

 

And from some of your comments regarding the financing of both the Epic and Freedom Challenge (two very different rides and organisation), it would seem that at the heart is nothing more than money.

 

At a guess I would say you would like to know how much money you want from the Freedom Challenge?

[Ketoorskop]

I need to ask, are you a landowner ?

 

From the website you gave it seems there is more to this access story than meets the eye.

 

And from some of your comments regarding the financing of both the Epic and Freedom Challenge (two very different rides and organisation), it would seem that at the heart is nothing more than money.

 

At a guess I would say you would like to know how much money you want from the Freedom Challenge?

Just to be clear, this is not about money.

[tubed]

Just to be clear, this is not about money.

 

Please answer my question then what it is about?

[Ketoorskop]

The post above by hillbilly makes a lot of sense and sets out clearly the correct legal position as put forward by all those seeking an acknowledgement by the owners on either side of the Leer of the publics right to traverse this land. - something I have yet to see the owners actually dispute.

 

Ketoorskop - as one of the consortium of landowners you have voluntarily waded into this argument and have relied thus far on the sympathy argument that you bought the land and own the access road, what you have not clarified is your position on the public's historical right of access to this entry/ exit point which necessitates their reasonable traverse across your land with or without your permission.

 

You seem to have gone considerably further last night in your alleged actions and your intent by barring access to the Leer, I am not sure if someone did ask you permission, would you have removed the razor wire?.

 

So I ask you please simply clarify if you recognise the public's historical right to enter and access the kloof?

 

I am afraid I don't think you can keep silent on this matter any longer.

Just to re-iterate, my previous discussion points are all personal opinions. I have no legal background to make further pronouncements on the matter other than to say that our position has always been that the road between Cap Nature and the Ladder is private. It's not about the Ladder.

Anyway, I just wanted to have a little conversation to see how much the general public knows about both sides of the issue and what the general feeling is. More than that I cannot say and as the organisers rightly (or wrongly whatever the case may be) say is that the law can probably only sort this out as talking just goes around in circles.

Time for me to step away from the discussion.

Regards to all and good luck to riders in their quest.

[tubed]

Just to re-iterate, my previous discussion points are all personal opinions. I have no legal background to make further pronouncements on the matter other than to say that our position has always been that the road between Cap Nature and the Ladder is private. It's not about the Ladder.

Anyway, I just wanted to have a little conversation to see how much the general public knows about both sides of the issue and what the general feeling is. More than that I cannot say and as the organisers rightly (or wrongly whatever the case may be) say is that the law can probably only sort this out as talking just goes around in circles.

Time for me to step away from the discussion.

Regards to all and good luck to riders in their quest.

 

I rest my case.

[Ketoorskop]

Please answer my question then what it is about?

Last update from me.

It's about right to privacy on your own land. That's all. And as the picture earlier implies there would be support from the owners for the race if that right was recognised and permission was requested.

On the subject of comparing to the Cape Epic, it was a silly thing for me to say and I apologise as it is unsubstantiated. Just as it is unsubstantiated to suggest that the owners are looking for a handout. So I respectfully "withdraw" the comment (for what it's worth).

[Kranky]

Last update from me.

It's about right to privacy on your own land. That's all. And as the picture earlier implies there would be support from the owners for the race if that right was recognised and permission was requested.

 

So your argument is ownership trumps all other rights in respect of a piece of land? Even when the applicable law might say otherwise?

 

Unfortunately for the land owners, servitudes are old news in South African law. The only question is to determine whether a servitudal right of way has developed over this particular route.

 

I haven't heard much evidence that it isn't used in this manner. However, I have learnt that there is a long history of the public using the route and that the land owners are trying their hardest to prevent people using it (which would imply that people are indeed attempting to make use of a route that they deem to be public).

 

But I do admit that I am merely an internet critic and there could be much more to this than I am aware. Just going on what is available.

[Kranky]

The law relating to historical rights of way is clearly set out in a recent judgment in the Western Cape:

http://www.saflii.or...HC/2012/50.html

 

From the judgment it is clear that the public right of way exists completely independently of any proclaimed road.

 

Furthermore, from one of the authorities quoted in the judgment hillbilly linked above:

 

"The existence of a public servitude can be asserted by proving vestus or immemorial user. In terms of this doctrine there is a rebuttable presumption that where a so-called public servitude has been exercised by members of the public from time immemorial, such servitude arose by virtue of a valid title even though there is no written proof of the validity of the rule"

 

'public servitudes are not extinguished by non-user or any form of extinctive prescription'

 

My interpretation: If a public servitude can be shown in the distant past, it is presumed to be valid. A public servitude is not removed due to lack of use.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Nick.

[Danger Dassie]

With regard to privacy, exactly what form of privacy is being violated?

[johannrissik]

.......

Regards to all and good luck to riders in their quest.

 

Thank you, I will do my best.

[Ketoorskop]

With regard to privacy, exactly what form of privacy is being violated?

Same privacy you prefer to have at home when braaing/swimming etc. without having a horde of riders come through your backyard uninvited. Edited June 28, 2013 by Ketoorskop

[Shebeen]

Same privacy you prefer to have at home when braaing/swimming etc. without having a horde of riders come through your backyard uninvited.

I’ve had a look at your website(I take it you are one of the four owners?), and I really must applaud you for the work, time and money put into the property. I can understand that it is really not about the money as I’m sure you have stopped counting how much you’ve put in by now.

 

It does seem like you’re in a bind here, however. We all accept that Die Leer is a public right of way, so you can’t really claim it to be only available to the landowners and the paying guests(a stated unique selling point). Now that it’s come to a head the situation is likely to be resolved – either the land is private or the public can come and go as they please. If it’s the latter, then I expect the privacy and solace you have been enjoying and fighting for might be a thing of the past now that this has become such a public matter.

 

I follow this with interest, the langebaan ratepayers vs dormell properties for access to White road was a good read.

[dillon]

maybe a dumb questions, but is there another access road to the ladder?

[Ketoorskop]

I’ve had a look at your website(I take it you are one of the four owners?), and I really must applaud you for the work, time and money put into the property. I can understand that it is really not about the money as I’m sure you have stopped counting how much you’ve put in by now.

 

It does seem like you’re in a bind here, however. We all accept that Die Leer is a public right of way, so you can’t really claim it to be only available to the landowners and the paying guests(a stated unique selling point). Now that it’s come to a head the situation is likely to be resolved – either the land is private or the public can come and go as they please. If it’s the latter, then I expect the privacy and solace you have been enjoying and fighting for might be a thing of the past now that this has become such a public matter.

 

I follow this with interest, the langebaan ratepayers vs dormell properties for access to White road was a good read.

I'm not an owner as such, but an interested and affected party and you are right about the time and money spent. Although there is business aspect operated through a trust, it is operated at a loss as all the turnover (and some extra cash input from the owner's pockets) goes into maintaining the place. Visitors might have noticed for instance the orange TLB/digger parked under the shed at Boplaas which was bought and is operated at significant expense to one of the owners for the purpose of maintaining the private road from Cape Nature to the Ladder as it is not maintained by the authorities (being a private road).

[Shebeen]

maybe a dumb questions, but is there another access road to the ladder?

nope. one road in at the bottom. one road out at the top.

 

There's actually an old garage at the top. Someone from the valley back in the day must have bought the car and used it to get from the top to town.