Fake / Counterfeit Bikes & Components: News and how to spot them

[JGR]

It is fraudulent, no question about that. I wasn't coming from a moral perspective though because morally it is definitely wrong whether its a bike or clothing. My point was more along the lines of safety. I wouldn't buy a chinese import because I wouldn't feel safe riding it. I do however feel that most large manufacturers are to blame for the increased interest in chinese imports because of their ridiculous prices. No one in their right mind can tell me that selling a Pinarello Dogma for like 100k is not overpriced. Same goes for clothing when you pay over 2k for a bib shorts and jersey. To me it's way overpriced as is most things cycling related. I mean some parts on my bike costs more than parts on my car.

A branded frame can also break and I highly doubt any manufaturer would claim that it does not/could not break. Your safety is not gaurenteed the other way around. Secondly in SA Im more concerned about getting moered by a car or getting jacked tbh

[Wyatt Earp]

@Admin/Matt

 

Thank you, and also for changing the title

[rouxtjie]

It is fraudulent, no question about that. I wasn't coming from a moral perspective though because morally it is definitely wrong whether its a bike or clothing. My point was more along the lines of safety. I wouldn't buy a chinese import because I wouldn't feel safe riding it. I do however feel that most large manufacturers are to blame for the increased interest in chinese imports because of their ridiculous prices. No one in their right mind can tell me that selling a Pinarello Dogma for like 100k is not overpriced. Same goes for clothing when you pay over 2k for a bib shorts and jersey. To me it's way overpriced as is most things cycling related. I mean some parts on my bike costs more than parts on my car.

And they have overheads that the chinese manufacturers don't have...sponsorships comes to mind, R&D is another....

 

But then again they created the monster...the campy vs giant story

[patches]

I have a fake Fox 36 Talas World Champ fork.

 

 

I know it may be hard for many of you to believe, but I have never raced World Champs

[spyster]

I think this thread is a great idea! I am an attorney specializing in anti-counterfeiting. The fact that I do nothing else other than assisting clients to find and seize counterfeit goods day in and day out illustrates just how bad the problem is in South Africa. In many cases, people don't even know that they are buying a counterfeit products.

 

People tend to associate counterfeit goods with shoes, clothing, DVD's etc. That is only a drop in the ocean. Any product for which there is a demand in counterfeited. We find medicines, cigarettes, electronics, motor oils, golf balls, diapers, razor blades, etc. The list goes on. The cycling industry has already, as can be seen in this thread, been targeted by importers and manufacturers of counterfeit goods.

 

A lot of people do not support the sale of counterfeit goods and will avoid them at all costs. Sometimes though, the counterfeits look so much like the real thing that it is difficult to tell if you are not an expert. It is therefore extremely important to have threads like this one to inform and educate. If someone knowingly buys a counterfeit product, well then be it on his (or her) head if something goes wrong.

[Sepia]

Fear mongering. There seems to be more stories about "brand" bikes failing in the "Broken Chinese Carbon" thread than actual Chinese frames.

 

"tend to fail", pffft.

As the man said.

[Andymann]

same reason one dopes. Cos you are a lying cheating fraud

 

Hmmm. Jan Ullrich rode a Walser TT bike painted as a Bianchi, as well as one painted to as a Giant. I guess that explains it!

[Azonic]

I think this thread is a great idea! I am an attorney specializing in anti-counterfeiting. The fact that I do nothing else other than assisting clients to find and seize counterfeit goods day in and day out illustrates just how bad the problem is in South Africa. In many cases, people don't even know that they are buying a counterfeit products.

 

People tend to associate counterfeit goods with shoes, clothing, DVD's etc. That is only a drop in the ocean. Any product for which there is a demand in counterfeited. We find medicines, cigarettes, electronics, motor oils, golf balls, diapers, razor blades, etc. The list goes on. The cycling industry has already, as can be seen in this thread, been targeted by importers and manufacturers of counterfeit goods.

 

A lot of people do not support the sale of counterfeit goods and will avoid them at all costs. Sometimes though, the counterfeits look so much like the real thing that it is difficult to tell if you are not an expert. It is therefore extremely important to have threads like this one to inform and educate. If someone knowingly buys a counterfeit product, well then be it on his (or her) head if something goes wrong.

 

If you have for instance a product, and have another product that looks exactly the same but is not branded with company A's logos, and you tell people that it isn't a real Product A and they are ok with that, is that still a counterfeit product?

[Wyatt Earp]

A branded frame can also break and I highly doubt any manufaturer would claim that it does not/could not break. Your safety is not gaurenteed the other way around. Secondly in SA Im more concerned about getting moered by a car or getting jacked tbh

 

Again, this is not about breakages but let's try and stay on topic, and before everyone hops on the pro-bikeshop owner bandwagon, there are a few things to consider.

Anything can break, fake, cheap or high ticket.

 

I have just returned from the Vespa store in Fourways, and they have some awesome 150 cc's there that my missus would love.

She has a 150 cc. Big Boy Retro.

It would be very foolish from me to say Vespa are crazy asking such a premium when the Big Boy also gets you where you want to be.

 

Basic economics needs to be applied here, she uses her scooter once a week on the weekend.

The difference however is that Big Boy don't try and copy Vespa.

With bicycles it's even more of a grey area.

 

A big company puts much R&D in to their bikes and the different tiers of models.

Some companies have road bikes for Pro, Recreational and Elderly riders.

That is three tiers already.

 

Now it's easy for any manufacturer that has the equipment and factory to "steal" the design and copy it and offer three tiers with a few minor changes.

A few differences however enters the fray when company A uses a different carbon and carbon layout compared to the copy company B.

 

No issue with that whatever as I myself by acknowledgment with my wives scooter is after the value for money (saying that, if she used it day in and day out, she would have the Vespa)

Where it becomes an issue is when the exact bike is being copied and being manufactured at a lower standard with inferior materials, and then gets branded as the bike that company A manufactures and sells.

 

It's not just fraud and theft , but also a potential liability issue in the future.

Also, everyone preaching "stringent testing" need to understand that the board of standards testing said item varies much from country to country.

 

Specialized themselves became talk of town when everyone claimed that they sold a helmet that didn't pass all the standards ,in the meanwhile the straps did not pass the U.S. standards yet the European board of standards accepted it, the helmet was sold in Europe and Africa with no issue.

 

In the end of the day I say.

Viva chinese product if that floats your boat and I say viva brand name if that floats your boat, but to go and buy fakes to (a) Stroke ones own ego and (B) support illegal operations is just wrong.

 

Saying all that, the intention of the thread is more in the line of trying to make hubbers aware of what to look out for when spending money on high ticket items.

[rouxtjie]

If you have for instance a product, and have another product that looks exactly the same but is not branded with company A's logos, and you tell people that it isn't a real Product A and they are ok with that, is that still a counterfeit product?

But then its not exactly the same imo....its the branding that makes something counterfeit.

[Wyatt Earp]

I have a fake Fox 36 Talas World Champ fork.

 

 

I know it may be hard for many of you to believe, but I have never raced World Champs

 

I think the attention seeking thread is in another forum.

[Wyatt Earp]

But then its not exactly the same imo....its the branding that makes something counterfeit.

 

So true, but I expect not too many to understand what you said there.

It's no different to plagiarism.

[JGR]

I have a fake Fox 36 Talas World Champ fork.

 

 

I know it may be hard for many of you to believe, but I have never raced World Champs

Im totally shocked

[rouxtjie]

.....

 

A big company puts much R&D in to their bikes and the different tiers of models.

.....

This is actually a very good point...can the big name manufacturers that dump big dollars into R&D not copyright the geometry of a bike and thus make even the blank copies of said frames from china counterfeits.

 

Or would it be impossible to copyright or police angles and tube / stay lengths copying.

 

As I see it, the chinese guys take a bike...lets say a sworks stumpy and copies the angles and geometry to the T, but just don't brand it. That is how I purchased my bike....I looked at a geometry that I enjoyd(SC highball) and bought a frame from carbonality that has that geometry, meanwhile, it was actually SC's R&D that made the bike feel like it did.

 

Now here is another issue, what about guys that import these frames in bulk from china, calls it EagleNinjaLegend 1.00 and charges almost the same as the big brand names. Surely they also owe some of their sales to the R&D from which that bike was copied from...?

[Azonic]

This is actually a very good point...can the big name manufacturers that dump big dollars into R&D not copyright the geometry of a bike and thus make even the blank copies of said frames from china counterfeits.

 

Or would it be impossible to copyright or police angles and tube / stay lengths copying.

 

As I see it, the chinese guys take a bike...lets say a sworks stumpy and copies the angles and geometry to the T, but just don't brand it. That is how I purchased my bike....I looked at a geometry that I enjoyd(SC highball) and bought a frame from carbonality that has that geometry, meanwhile, it was actually SC's R&D that made the bike feel like it did.

 

Now here is another issue, what about guys that import these frames in bulk from china, calls it EagleNinjaLegend 1.00 and charges almost the same as the big brand names. Surely they also owe some of their sales to the R&D from which that bike was copied from...?

 

That's like putting a copyright on a mathematical equation.

[Hennie VR]

This is actually a very good point...can the big name manufacturers that dump big dollars into R&D not copyright the geometry of a bike and thus make even the blank copies of said frames from china counterfeits.

 

Or would it be impossible to copyright or police angles and tube / stay lengths copying.

 

As I see it, the chinese guys take a bike...lets say a sworks stumpy and copies the angles and geometry to the T, but just don't brand it. That is how I purchased my bike....I looked at a geometry that I enjoyd(SC highball) and bought a frame from carbonality that has that geometry, meanwhile, it was actually SC's R&D that made the bike feel like it did.

 

Now here is another issue, what about guys that import these frames in bulk from china, calls it EagleNinjaLegend 1.00 and charges almost the same as the big brand names. Surely they also owe some of their sales to the R&D from which that bike was copied from...?

 

Exactly. The fake/counterfeit does not end with the brand/logo.

The geometry is a patent that gets registered. If someone else wants to use that patent then they have to pay the owner for it. Thus in my opinion all the frames that are the same as the original but does not have the logo on it is still a counterfeit product.