Dear Giant...

[GoLefty!!]

Here is the story re Giants big switcheroo as I see it as gleaned from reading of internet articles and court papers over the last few months:

1. Giant is being sued by Dave Weagle for patent infringement over the Maestro suspension design

2. Prior to this legal action Giant had entered into a suspension design contract with DW for a new suspension design to be called "Super G";

3. According to DW Giants design parameters were altered as the design process proceeded until their demands conflicted with the laws of physics leading to the end of that project;

4. DW then sued Giant re the patent - this case is on going and my bet is it will be settled with payment of an undisclosed figure. This leaves Giant without the new suspension design they were going to use on their 29ers (conjecture on my part - see below)

5. Giants Maestro design results in longish chainstays which means its far harder to build anything but a long wheelbase bike in 29" and that doesn't translate well to a great handling/easy to manual etc AM/gravity bike many people are after these days (for instance my 26" Reign has slightly longer chainstays than a Spaz enduro 29er!)

 

So, I think the leap onto the 27.5 bandwagon is driven by a restrictive suspension design (Maestro) and no new design to cope with 29" wheels in the pipeline yet. Watch this space however because if Giant can go big on 27.5 they can just as easily flop back the other way with anew suspension design in a few years/

 

My 3c

 

 

i'd rate the theory at less than a cent. maybe a ZIm cent.

 

Giant claim they developed Maestro while DW was doing the DW link concurrently. Weagle claims Giant altered their design after they saw his. Either way, at the time he was showing the design off he was not completely covered by a patent. So yes I think a settlement is on the way but I don't think the suspension design will limit the effectiveness of their 29 inch bikes. A bicycle suspension is not that complicated and its not like there massive kinematic forces at play. These are not F1 cars.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the 650B allows for flexibility in the frame designand allows for a stronger overall structure without compromising ride. anyone who buys into 29er "ride" quality is buying into flexible wheels and i don;t think that a good thing. good suspension needs a strong stiff wheel to be effective. All things being equal its just much more effective to retain a smaller stiffer wheel for a suspension bikes. The 650b is the best compromise. I think Scott is closer to the truth and also, 650b will be better accepted in Europe because its a European norm and has been around for a long time on other bikes. The 29er remains a viable option for the 6"2' + crowd but the average height rider is where the market is.

[Wil6]

 

you're all just upset because they say 29hers are ****

 

I remember a ton of posts a year ago with the 29" guys saying 26" was over.

Now 27.5" says 29" is over and you all upset.

 

I bet anyone that there will be more 26" sales than 29" sales worldwide in 2014.

and 27.5 is gonna fly through the roof just like 29" did when it started here.

 

29hers are History

Goodness me , I will put a reminder on my phone to come back to you in a years time to see what you will say then

[Baracuda]

What I find frustrating with all of this is that we can't actually test ride all the bikes in South Africa (that often).

I am trying to choose between a 650b or 29er. The obvious solution is to take both bikes to Tokai for a morning, test both on climbs, rough corregated road, single track downhill, a few drops and make up your own mind.

But we don't have this opportunity.

[GoLefty!!]

you can create the opportunity....

[Eldron]

Like I've said before - I hope all 3 sizes stay - it gives people choice.

 

Shorties that are power riders can use 29er wheels.

Tall guys that are spinners can use 650B.

In betweeners that prefer fun tech stuff to marathons can run 26 wheels or 29 if they move to marathon/stage racing.

 

Choice rocks.

 

In an ideal world 650B would be replaced by 650A so we have a real "in betweener" but 650B is closeish enough I guess.

 

I can understand companies wanting to reduce inventory/tooling/capital costs but Giant's poor use of marketing bollocks and selective info to justify that reduction doesn't seem to be winning them many fans!

[Eldron]

My guess is that 650B will be the most tested format at the Cycle Fair this weekend!

[rouxtjie]

My guess is that 650B will be the most tested format at the Cycle Fair this weekend!

hehehhe sure, I need another bike anyway

[JKK]

Are we going to see a 28" wheel come and upset the market in a couple of years?

[(Deon)]

Are we going to see a 28" wheel come and upset the market in a couple of years?

No they've reserved 650A for that.

[GoLefty!!]

problem is tooling doesn't exist much for 650A whereas in Europe 650B is quite widely available for city bikes. This is a big market in Europe, bigger than 700c (which is already pretty big).

 

when the mtb got going, the Euro's were tooling up to build their bikes around 650b but the yanks got the drop on them and cornered the market around 26inch. The rest is history,.....well it seems the wheel has turned..

[Hairy]

problem is tooling doesn't exist much for 650A whereas in Europe 650B is quite widely available for city bikes. This is a big market in Europe, bigger than 700c (which is already pretty big).

 

when the mtb got going, the Euro's were tooling up to build their bikes around 650b but the yanks got the drop on them and cornered the market around 26inch. The rest is history,.....well it seems the wheel has turned..

You like rolling with one liner jokes

[Dan Dob]

We'll be getting a fleet of rental Trance X 27.5 bikes next week. We have a fleet of Trance X 29ers in that we are currently selling. So anyone that wants to actually OBJECTIVELY back up their theory's then maybe iRide Africa should host a test day in Tokai? Obviously Giant should be the ones doing this but I could organise it if riders could cover our expenses.

Just please don't ask for a 29er in small...we don't stock them.

[Headshot]

i'd rate the theory at less than a cent. maybe a ZIm cent.

 

Giant claim they developed Maestro while DW was doing the DW link concurrently. Weagle claims Giant altered their design after they saw his. Either way, at the time he was showing the design off he was not completely covered by a patent. So yes I think a settlement is on the way but I don't think the suspension design will limit the effectiveness of their 29 inch bikes. A bicycle suspension is not that complicated and its not like there massive kinematic forces at play. These are not F1 cars.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the 650B allows for flexibility in the frame designand allows for a stronger overall structure without compromising ride. anyone who buys into 29er "ride" quality is buying into flexible wheels and i don;t think that a good thing. good suspension needs a strong stiff wheel to be effective. All things being equal its just much more effective to retain a smaller stiffer wheel for a suspension bikes. The 650b is the best compromise. I think Scott is closer to the truth and also, 650b will be better accepted in Europe because its a European norm and has been around for a long time on other bikes. The 29er remains a viable option for the 6"2' + crowd but the average height rider is where the market is.

 

I never said I thought DW would win his patent case - thats a side issue anyway.

 

I agree re the 650b vs 29er, but still believe its change for change's sake.

 

Fact is the Maestro suspension design restricts how short you can get the chainstays because of the major pivot behind the BB. If you look at other DW link and VPP bikes, the linkages are shorter or positioned differently leading to shorter chainstay frames ie better suited to bigger wheel sizes.

 

The reviews of the new Trance are good so far and the one I felt up recently was pretty light and good looking.

[GoLefty!!]

Hey iRide,

 

i'm willing to play with both over a weekend and give you a nice write up on the comparison. Totally objective as I have no affiliation to Giant or a magazine.

 

I did this for Bowmans and GAry Fischer back end of 2007

[GoLefty!!]

I never said I thought DW would win his patent case - thats a side issue anyway.

 

I agree re the 650b vs 29er, but still believe its change for change's sake.

 

Fact is the Maestro suspension design restricts how short you can get the chainstays because of the major pivot behind the BB. If you look at other DW link and VPP bikes, the linkages are shorter or positioned differently leading to shorter chainstay frames ie better suited to bigger wheel sizes.

 

The reviews of the new Trance are good so far and the one I felt up recently was pretty light and good looking.

 

 

I disagree completely because the space you have to work with is governed by the seat tube angle and BB height. The length of the links have nothing to do with the wheel size. In fact a bigger wheel gives you more space to work with

[Headshot]

We'll be getting a fleet of rental Trance X 27.5 bikes next week. We have a fleet of Trance X 29ers in that we are currently selling. So anyone that wants to actually OBJECTIVELY back up their theory's then maybe iRide Africa should host a test day in Tokai? Obviously Giant should be the ones doing this but I could organise it if riders could cover our expenses.

Just please don't ask for a 29er in small...we don't stock them.

 

Dan, I'd love to try the 27.5 so I can argue wheels sizes with some experience - how much would the test day cost?