Giro d' Italia 2015

[T-Bob]

Why is it that Astanas performance is suspiciously impressive but the man that beat them all "on his own" (not my words) is treated like a saviour?

 

That is another glaringly absent point of discussion in most of the cycling media. There is a lot  stuff being alluded to over the blue train but very little 'not being said' about Contador, the fact he is a convicted doper and has been stripped of the title before. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, is going for the double and only, kinda, cracked once while doing most of the hard yards on his own and with a pretty decent injury for a good part of it.

 

Not too sure what to make of it as you'd imagine the press would sniff around for a story esp with Tinkov's reasonably checkered past and Rij's less that stellar reputation.  

 

One person I could pretty much put coin on would be Ryder H as clean. Now there was some world class cracking and sheer suffering. He looked like a human who was riding some of those crazy distances and relentless inclines.  

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I'll weigh in, last time I looked Contador had a history of winning grand tours, three Giro's alone, Aru does not, nor does Landa whose best grand tour was 28th at the Vuelta, as for the rest of Astana they are all relative no-bodies in the grand tour world, suddenly they are all riding up there (and away from in some cases) with the worlds known best.

 

What you are saying is similar to saying LA beat Simeoni so LA must be doping, okay he was but LA and Simeoni were not on the same level anyway, LA would have ridden away from Simeoni half blind and suffering a hangover.

 

Landa came in 28th at the Vuelta 6 months ago, Contador won convincingly, now he rides away from Contador who by his own admission was in better shape than he was at the Vuelta.    

 

Think about that, ...take as long as you like!

[GrumpyOldGuy]

That is another glaringly absent point of discussion in most of the cycling media. There is a lot  stuff being alluded to over the blue train but very little 'not being said' about Contador, the fact he is a convicted doper and has been stripped of the title before. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, is going for the double and only, kinda, cracked once while doing most of the hard yards on his own and with a pretty decent injury for a good part of it.

 

Not too sure what to make of it as you'd imagine the press would sniff around for a story esp with Tinkov's reasonably checkered past and Rij's less that stellar reputation.  

 

One person I could pretty much put coin on would be Ryder H as clean. Now there was some world class cracking and sheer suffering. He looked like a human who was riding some of those crazy distances and relentless inclines.  

Rider pretty much rode away from Contador as well (no pun intended) so by the reasoning here he cant be clean either. 

 

I like the comment going around, "When there was a break of ten, five were Astana, when there was a break of eight, four were Astana" -  kinda sums it up. 

[tombeej]

Astana's A team are going to be something to behold if this was their B team. Right now I've got Nibali as a red-hot favourite for the TDF.

[T-Bob]

Rider pretty much rode away from Contador as well (no pun intended) so by the reasoning here he cant be clean either.

 

I like the comment going around, "When there was a break of ten, five were Astana, when there was a break of eight, four were Astana" - kinda sums it up.

To a degree. Look, I'm more convinced that he was clean and I hope very much he was for racings sake and the rest of cycling. I was more interested in the fact that there is little finger pointing towards contador when you look at the facts there should be as much as there isn't solid evidence against Astana. Convicted doper, rode for a team previously (and still) embroiled in controversy, has had previous grand tour wins stripped, previous mentors are still facing action for systematic doping, going for the double for the first time since the drug powdered times of Pantani when most others think it too much and fought the mighty evil Astana, pretty much solo all the way to Milan.

 

The media must be very as happy with the truth of his performance as they are as unhappy with the kask's because on the surface he should have a cloud hanging over him as big as the table cloth. Again the lack of comments and articles speak volumes.

 

All that aside i loved his performance and attitude enough to put aside the doubts that still lingere with Aru and co.

[HappyMartin]

Contador got weaker as the Giro went on. Land and Aru got stronger.

 

Not normal.

 

As someone else said. Look at where Landa was 6 months ago, look where he is now. When a donkey runs away from a thoroughbred you have to wonder.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

To a degree. Look, I'm more convinced that he was clean and I hope very much he was for racings sake and the rest of cycling. I was more interested in the fact that there is little finger pointing towards contador when you look at the facts there should be as much as there isn't solid evidence against Astana. Convicted doper, rode for a team previously (and still) embroiled in controversy, has had previous grand tour wins stripped, previous mentors are still facing action for systematic doping, going for the double for the first time since the drug powdered times of Pantani when most others think it too much and fought the mighty evil Astana, pretty much solo all the way to Milan.

 

The media must be very as happy with the truth of his performance as they are as unhappy with the kask's because on the surface he should have a cloud hanging over him as big as the table cloth. Again the lack of comments and articles speak volumes.

 

All that aside i loved his performance and attitude enough to put aside the doubts that still lingere with Aru and co.

I dont agree, you simply cant compare a rider like Contador and another on say the level of Tanel Kangert for instance, they are light years apart in historical wins (which points to ability) yet, Yup, he was right there, pulling like a train and riding away from Contador? 

 

Rider has won a grand tour, he has a history, he didn't just arrive at the line and start riding everyone off his wheel, Astana, apart from perhaps Aru, was essentially a team of domestiques whose best Collective grand tour position ever, was 28th, but who rode with, and away from, one of the worlds best and put two riders on the podium and four in the top 20...! 

 

Now that just strikes me as odd. 

[T-Bob]

I get you and I'm not disputing the wholly shady and skin crawling obvious Team that is Astana. If you look back at most of my posts I've been more than vocal about the team of average domestiques with previously average results

shelling the whole peloton... Let alone the comedic history of that squad in all it's forms for many years.

 

My point was (and is) simply that as much as Astana has drawn attention, Contador seems to have avoided it despite his cold fact history. The press has its reasons and often knows more than it's jittery legal department is willing to publish day to day.

 

Obviously the majority believe he is clean, I would like to believe that also. Yes Contador has history as a proven grand tour winner but he has also history of being stripped of two grand tour wins, a history with the same team that is being vilified, a history of being convicted as such and serving a ban and has now put in an awesome performance against lesser rivals. Both teams have lingering doping issues but the perception is miles part for a number of reasons. I would prefer not to question it, I'm sick of questioning it. I want to believe whole heartedly that one of the major cogs in this years hugely entertaining race was worth believing in...

[nochain]

My 2 cents on the Giro,

Nice win for Conto,well controlled and raced smart. Very little big efforts done by him except for the day he had to chase back and then went on 2 take time on Aru.But even during that stage he let Landa go which was pure effort calculation from he's part.

I think he came out of this much better than Froome and co would have hoped for and will be strong at the tour for sure.

As for the rest of the guy's. Landa has shown potential as a climber for a while now and will most probably become a strong contender over the next couple of years..TT is a big problem. Aru was always going to be up there and proved he will be one of the GC guys of the future.

Now here is the thing I think most don't consider....the rest of the GC field was a joke in my opinion. Kruijwijk showed some resistance and Hesjedal was there in the last week but have a look at the top 10....10 minutes between Conto and 5th place????10 minutes...16 minutes between 1 and 10th..

 

So yes Astana did look brilliant and to strong and had to many riders up there every day but really what were they up against??It looks amazing when they ride like that and suspicions no doubt but how impressive is it really?

What would they look like when a full strength Movistar is there with Valverde and Quintana at the Head? Or a hand picked Sky with Froome. And Pinot, Van Garderen, Mollema, Majka, Kellerman,Rolland to name a view..even Garmin left their 2 top dogs to fight at the Tour.

 

Would there still be 4 Astana out of 8 left in the finale if those guys were there?

 

As far as doping go, everybody here knows I hate talking about it but I will say this. You don't turn a donkey into a race horse in today's day of doping control.

These guy's will have a program(yes that may include Conto) and what that program will do is keep them as close as possible to the excepted variances each rider can have on he's passport. All blood levels that are relevant to endurance performance are being monitored closely for all riders and not 1 rider will be able to move outside what is deemed acceptable for that specific rider based on he's passport history.

That is why micro dosing is the in thing right now...it is a controlled way of moving the values as close to maximum as possible without creating suspicion. These allowed variances are small..very small.

And yes there will be new drugs always that can't be detected but they will still have to manage the levels.

That is also why when they do catch guys these day's..mostly because of some lucky timing by them the trace amounts are so small that they pick up.

Chances are very good that they all manage it in that way...no donkey's in the front of a grand tour that's for sure.

[nochain]

For the Conto fans that got worried ...here is Robert Miller's view.

Very important what he says about cracking and the way Conto rode the last part of the stage..no rider in real trouble can do that on he's own.

Conto is a wise old fox and Froome and co would be stupid to get excited based on what happened on that stage.

 

 

So when things got dirty for the race leader on the Colle delle Finestre it was entirely fitting that Astana took advantage and put Contador in trouble. Or was he?

Contador certainly didn't like the road surface on the way up to the Cima Coppi, the highest point of the whole race. He appeared to be struggling as he couldn't climb out of the saddle as much as he likes to because of the poor traction on the loose gravel and he didn't help himself by choosing some really bad lines on the inside of the bends where the cars had cut up the surface even more.

He was suffering, of that there's no doubt, but I don't think he cracked in any significant way. I think he recognised he was about to go too deep into the red to keep following all the accelerations and he decided to let the others go and then manage the situation.

He lost 50 seconds by the summit but then held that gap for all of the descent and most of the valley towards Sestriere. You can't do that if you've cracked, not with a slight headwind, slightly uphill and the other GC guys still riding strongly.

It would have been fatal for Contador if he was in a bad way. I think he bluffed a bit, let Astana and Nibali think he's more vulnerable than he really is. Tour de France mind games start way before the prologue and that, with a temporary moment of difficulty, is what we might have seen on stage 20.

[extremelights]

Contador got weaker as the Giro went on. Land and Aru got stronger.

 

Not normal.

 

As someone else said. Look at where Landa was 6 months ago, look where he is now. When a donkey runs away from a thoroughbred you have to wonder.

Well said !!!  people get weaker as a stage race goes on... if not...? Also take note that "all the astana boys got stronger quicktly".....?

 

Cant believe people still think contador is a cheat! He had his talent since he got on his bike as a youngster ! 

[Rider3000]

Dot want to say im always right but here me when i say... Nibali will NOT win the tour!!!

 

Mark my words... astana will not dominate the tour either... 

 

Think contador is capable but will be tired, Froome and the rest is fresh ! 

[Meezo]

Cant believe people still think contador is a cheat! He had his talent since he got on his bike as a youngster ! 

 

THIS!!! :thumbup:

[SwissVan]

Good posts by nochain (Robert Millar), hellocolor and GOG (even if GOG is wearing his contador pink sunglasses )

 

I’ve long given up worrying about who is doping and who is not, the authorities will always be lagging behind the organized dopers.

 

I don’t prescribe to the theory that astana’s (no capital on purpose J ) riders are all donkeys that only perform well because they on some juice…donkeys don’t get to be in the pro peleton. They all (pro peloton major tour riders) have above normal abilities and with the right training / support / motivation (read support with a wide angle lens  ) will be capable of what asana did.

My point is: Why do people vilify astana and in the same breath sing praise for Contador?

Well perhaps it has something to do with Contador’s demeanor which is kind of like “I’ll let my legs do the talking” instead of the Armstrong type which lets his legs, mouth and lawyers do the talking.

 

Contador did not only perform well in the beginning of the tour, he did some exceptional riding towards the end as well, don’t forget his revenge attack on astana leading riders during stage 18 when Landa got held up in a crash (?) the day Gilbert won…. There was no need for him to attack and try extend his lead extend his lead yet he did. There was no need for him to do the last week at full effort seeing he is planning on doing the double (triple?) this year.

 

Read the post by nochain on from robert millar

 

Anyway role on June, rumor has it Vroomie is training on the worlds steepest hill, https://twitter.com/chrisfroome

[SwissVan]

Contador got weaker as the Giro went on. Land and Aru got stronger.

 

Not normal.

 

As someone else said. Look at where Landa was 6 months ago, look where he is now. When a donkey runs away from a thoroughbred you have to wonder.

 

Contador had a 4 - 5 minute lead over astana riders, he did not need to ride at full effort whereas they had to.

 

Have you got power stats that verify they got stronger, or are u saying that because they were trying harder to get as many riders into the top ten and to bridge the gap to Contador?

[Patchelicious]

Cant believe people still think contador is a cheat! He had his talent since he got on his bike as a youngster ! 

 

So did Lance.... Having talent doesn't automatically make you a "not cheat".

 

Clenbutador IS a cheat, he was caught.

 

If he is still cheating is probably the question.

 

It was expected that Alberto would win at Giro because his main competition was not there, he is more talented that the other riders at this years Giro. So I do not think his performance vs the others at the Giro was suspect.

 

Astana's train and how they got stronger towards the end is suspect. Kind of reminds me on SKY 2 years back.