19/01/2015 Tokai 6am

[GoLefty!!]

 "You and Golefty should stop patting each other on the back and go ride a bit more"  

 

 

 

 

be careful with statements....I can show you my garmin downloads.... 

 

D=Besides, there are far tougher environments to ride on. try the road sometime

[DJR]

........

As far as the "baboon menace" is concerned - in all my years in Cape Town, I have never ever had a serious problem with a baboon aside from one which tried to steal my car last year and that was funny rather than scary:-) . My 2 year old was strolling among them  in the car park a few weeks ago and loved it.  I regularly stop for a break to watch them and often see researchers (I presume) following them around in close proximity with no agro on display. That's my experience and reference point in over forty years on the mountain and I don't expect it to change any time soon. 

 

To my mind, to stop stop a couple of people walking into the forest for a picnic makes little sense when hikers and cyclists can stop and have a picnic anywhere they like. There is also a large "use at own risk" sign at the gate. Its quite simple - keep your eye out and pack up if the baboons approach. 

................

The idea re. baboons work like this:

 

Baboons should not be given easy meal opportunities. This is for their own good and a very sound conservation principle on SANParks' side. That is why they have spent a small fortune enclosing the picnic area as well as all the housing with electric fences. The corporate picnic area has a baboon monitor with a paint ball gun keeping watch whenever it is hired by someone. Banning picnicking in upper Tokai that the baboons frequent most often, is a good thing for THEM, over and above the fact that it will prevent a lot of conflict between baboons and people in an area that we share. Again, good conservation. That is why the guards and monitors keep the troops away from the parking area as much as possible, out of the suburbs and off the wine farms.

 

If you want to see the "baboon problem" fully developed, look at the troops at Cape Point that have developed serious dependence on picnic food. The level of aggressiveness is much higher and cannot be un-learnt. Sadly, a problem baboon is often a dead baboon. The fact that SANParks do not shoot and kill the problem ones, is because of public relations. See, the problem is really a HUMAN problem!

 

At least, in Tokai, Parks still have a chance of keeping the troops more or less on the straight and narrow. That is why you haven't seen attacks, because of something Parks did. It may well come soon enough (my crystal ball) because I have a suspicion that there is not enough room for the current numbers and the pressure to expand into the suburbs is mounting ....... hope I'm wrong because I love seeing them there.

[(Deon)]

@Deon My agenda is, inter alia, to call out SANP for poor management and poor customer relations and push for a customer centered attitude to the MTB user group ie more riding areas and more trails.  It may be a losing battle with them, but hell its fun. I prefer this agenda to one which seems to try and justify everything that SANP does(or cannot do) no matter how illogical and shortsighted.   

 

Wapad - Some people probably do exactly what I suggest with or without permits and start early morning rides up the mountain at the Wapad. I was pointing out that this is entirely possible, making the rangers actions at Tokai pretty ludicrous.  I did not and have never advocated riding without a permit . The park has porous borders which it always will. 

 

I am on record as proposing that TMNP up their collection rate for MTB  fees at Tokai  - this to counter their claim that they don't collect enough at the gate to justify spending more of their budget there. That would include manning the gates from earlier to sell tickets and selling tickets via rangers rather than issuing tickets for fines ( its not rocket science is it). The latter idea was well received by local management but no doubt will go nowhere due to the stifling red tape.

 

 

Stopping people riding early in the morning when these facilities are not available is a little short sighted I think. I do think the OP should explain why if he's a regular he does not have an activity permit however(apologies if this has been covered already)

 

"They are aware of the issues but don't have a solution" - that's funny and quite typical of the TMNP response to everything and one which leads to ranting threads like this one. Putting it out there on their behalf when its meaningless and irritating to most of us makes little sense. It really just reinforces the perception that SANP is badly run.

 

As far as the "baboon menace" is concerned - in all my years in Cape Town, I have never ever had a serious problem with a baboon aside from one which tried to steal my car last year and that was funny rather than scary:-) . My 2 year old was strolling among them  in the car park a few weeks ago and loved it.  I regularly stop for a break to watch them and often see researchers (I presume) following them around in close proximity with no agro on display. That's my experience and reference point in over forty years on the mountain and I don't expect it to change any time soon. 

 

To my mind, to stop stop a couple of people walking into the forest for a picnic makes little sense when hikers and cyclists can stop and have a picnic anywhere they like. There is also a large "use at own risk" sign at the gate. Its quite simple - keep your eye out and pack up if the baboons approach. 

 

Table Mountain is not a game park with lions and stuff in it - someone should tell SANP :-)

 

You and Golefty should stop patting each other on the back and go ride a bit more. Maybe commune with the 'boons a bit while you there :-)

Understood and accepted. When you "speak" you make sense but as with many of the threads you've participated in, this only comes out after you've p i s s e d all over the thread. 

 

I do not make excuses for TMNP but rather my response is an indication that it is under consideration. Many options are being considered, one of which a better permit structure but this is not enough for you by your own admission..

 

So why, if you've already made suggestions to Parks, some you claim are well received, do you continue to beat them at every opportunity - without fail.

 

You know it's a slow turning wheel, are you going to feverishly bash the institution until they find resolve to the issues? 

 

Regarding the baboons.. easy. If you have not seen it, does not mean it is not happening. You have two direct accounts, one from as recent as yesterday. But you shut your eyes and ears and instead give us a a personal recount of the last 40 years without incident.

 

Here's another one. Last June I made the mistake of looking at a dead baby baboon lying in the water channel in the road. Just looking at it created a frenzy around me I hope I am never in again. I felt threatened! At some point you need to concede that there are experiences and opinions that, while you don't agree with, are a reality.

 

Just happens that Golefty is capable of objective thought. You on the other offer rational thought only after being called out. Is this what 2015 is about.. again?

[(Deon)]

The idea re. baboons work like this:

 

Baboons should not be given easy meal opportunities. This is for their own good and a very sound conservation principle on SANParks' side. That is why they have spent a small fortune enclosing the picnic area as well as all the housing with electric fences. The corporate picnic area has a baboon monitor with a paint ball gun keeping watch whenever it is hired by someone. Banning picnicking in upper Tokai that the baboons frequent most often, is a good thing for THEM, over and above the fact that it will prevent a lot of conflict between baboons and people in an area that we share. Again, good conservation. That is why the guards and monitors keep the troops away from the parking area as much as possible, out of the suburbs and off the wine farms.

 

If you want to see the "baboon problem" fully developed, look at the troops at Cape Point that have developed serious dependence on picnic food. The level of aggressiveness is much higher and cannot be un-learnt. Sadly, a problem baboon is often a dead baboon. The fact that SANParks do not shoot and kill the problem ones, is because of public relations. See, the problem is really a HUMAN problem!

 

At least, in Tokai, Parks still have a chance of keeping the troops more or less on the straight and narrow. That is why you haven't seen attacks, because of something Parks did. It may well come soon enough (my crystal ball) because I have a suspicion that there is not enough room for the current numbers and the pressure to expand into the suburbs is mounting ....... hope I'm wrong because I love seeing them there.

Can I pat you on the back or better just to like.. ? 

 

It's blinkers D, what is not seen is not a problem.

[dirtypot]

I've never had any issues with the baboons despite riding through and around them very closely (especially on the ST) and never feel any hostility from them at all.  But I have been shot by one of the paintball rangers!

 

I enjoy seeing the baboons there, especially when they have the babies.  It makes you feel like you're out in nature, which is what I want when I'm mountain biking.

[Slapsock]

Understood and accepted. When you "speak" you make sense but as with many of the threads you've participated in, this only comes out after you've p i s s e d all over the thread. 

 

I do not make excuses for TMNP but rather my response is an indication that it is under consideration. Many options are being considered, one of which a better permit structure but this is not enough for you by your own admission..

 

So why, if you've already made suggestions to Parks, some you claim are well received, do you continue to beat them at every opportunity - without fail.

 

You know it's a slow turning wheel, are you going to feverishly bash the institution until they find resolve to the issues? 

 

Regarding the baboons.. easy. If you have not seen it, does not mean it is not happening. You have two direct accounts, one from as recent as yesterday. But you shut your eyes and ears and instead give us a a personal recount of the last 40 years without incident.

 

Here's another one. Last June I made the mistake of looking at a dead baby baboon lying in the water channel in the road. Just looking at it created a frenzy around me I hope I am never in again. I felt threatened! At some point you need to concede that there are experiences and opinions that, while you don't agree with, are a reality.

 

Just happens that Golefty is capable of objective thought. You on the other offer rational thought only after being called out. Is this what 2015 is about.. again?

Hi Guys

 

I ride in Tokai often, have been doing for several years now.

 

Unfortunately there is no defending the way tokai treats its largest user group, we are treated as a nuisance that they just have to put up with because they have financial targets to meet and exploiting the cyclists is the easiest way to do so. Make no mistake those security guards checking for permits in the morning are not there for safety, they are only there to make sure that you go buy an annual permit, they don't want your R60 that's why they will not make a plan for people to buy day permits before their offices open.

 

The common refrain heard on the hub is "be patient" "we must listen to them and then they'll let us build trails" bla bla bla, I heard this for years and nothing meaningful has ever come from SANP, we have less trails than a few years ago and far more users so in fact less than nothing has been done because we are paying more and getting less. When will they bring something meaningful to the party?

 

Any business would be bending over the backwards to accommodate its biggest customer but not them...and Eskom.

[Headshot]

Understood and accepted. When you "speak" you make sense but as with many of the threads you've participated in, this only comes out after you've p i s s e d all over the thread. 

 

I do not make excuses for TMNP but rather my response is an indication that it is under consideration. Many options are being considered, one of which a better permit structure but this is not enough for you by your own admission..

 

So why, if you've already made suggestions to Parks, some you claim are well received, do you continue to beat them at every opportunity - without fail.

 

You know it's a slow turning wheel, are you going to feverishly bash the institution until they find resolve to the issues? 

 

Regarding the baboons.. easy. If you have not seen it, does not mean it is not happening. You have two direct accounts, one from as recent as yesterday. But you shut your eyes and ears and instead give us a a personal recount of the last 40 years without incident.

 

Here's another one. Last June I made the mistake of looking at a dead baby baboon lying in the water channel in the road. Just looking at it created a frenzy around me I hope I am never in again. I felt threatened! At some point you need to concede that there are experiences and opinions that, while you don't agree with, are a reality.

 

Just happens that Golefty is capable of objective thought. You on the other offer rational thought only after being called out. Is this what 2015 is about.. again?

 

 

Deon your "pissed all over a thread" is my "fair comment"  nonetheless I fail to see where the toilet epithet is applicable on this one. 

 

"well received" simply means someone here thought it was a good idea and sent it to head office. In my experience that means little or nothing will happen, ever. I have firsthand experience of SANP management as you very well know. I came away unimpressed with their dismissive attitude to our cause and self congratulatory posturing.

 

I am not denying that people have incidents with baboons - in fact so have i as I said. Its a question of perception. How would you and Golefty feel about a large male baboon in your car? To me it was mildly concerning but not time to panic. They are wild animals but are largely harmless to humans. A pack of dogs would cause far more problems.

 

Again Deon, if you read what I wrote properly the first time, I would not need to respond and explain my "irrationality" time and again. The wapad comment being a glaring case in point. 

 

If all this SANP bashing causes you so much angst - why do you bother to read it?

[marko35s]

Deon your "pissed all over a thread" is my "fair comment"  nonetheless I fail to see where the toilet epithet is applicable on this one. 

 

"well received" simply means someone here thought it was a good idea and sent it to head office. In my experience that means little or nothing will happen, ever. I have firsthand experience of SANP management as you well know. I came away unimpressed with their dismissive attitude to our cause and self congratulatory posturing.

 

I am not denying that people have incidents with baboons - in fact so have i as I said. Its a question of perception. How would you and Golefty feel about a large male baboon in your car? To me it was mildly concerning but not time to panic. They are wild animals but are largely harmless to humans. A pack of dogs would cause more problems and from what i have seen, kangaroos are more dangerous. 

I don't think it can be denied that they are getting more confident and pushing things a bit these days. I cycled into the middle of a melee last week and for the first time in around 300 or so rides at Tokai I was made to back away by a baboon with a point to prove.

It isn't helped though when you get idiots like the bunch I saw last week sitting at the back of the parking area having a picnic and thinking it is great fun to throw food to the baboons. It was less fun for them a few minutes later when a lady (who I presume was part of the group) fetched a cake from her car and was comprehensively mugged for it by a mid size female baboon.

[marko35s]

Hi Guys

 

I ride in Tokai often, have been doing for several years now.

 

Unfortunately there is no defending the way tokai treats its largest user group, we are treated as a nuisance that they just have to put up with because they have financial targets to meet and exploiting the cyclists is the easiest way to do so. Make no mistake those security guards checking for permits in the morning are not there for safety, they are only there to make sure that you go buy an annual permit, they don't want your R60 that's why they will not make a plan for people to buy day permits before their offices open.

 

The common refrain heard on the hub is "be patient" "we must listen to them and then they'll let us build trails" bla bla bla, I heard this for years and nothing meaningful has ever come from SANP, we have less trails than a few years ago and far more users so in fact less than nothing has been done because we are paying more and getting less. When will they bring something meaningful to the party?

 

Any business would be bending over the backwards to accommodate its biggest customer but not them...and Eskom.

I really don't get where this "there to check you paid/catch you" type of thing comes from.

There are thousands of riders up and down there every week and I would be surprised if even ten of them are stopped for a random check.

For the last two years I have ridden there every second day and not once have I been pulled over mid ride to check for permits.

[Headshot]

I don't think it can be denied that they are getting more confident and pushing things a bit these days. I cycled into the middle of a melee last week and for the first time in around 300 or so rides at Tokai I was made to back away by a baboon with a point to prove.

It isn't helped though when you get idiots like the bunch I saw last week sitting at the back of the parking area having a picnic and thinking it is great fun to throw food to the baboons. It was less fun for them a few minutes later when a lady (who I presume was part of the group) fetched a cake from her car and was comprehensively mugged for it by a mid size female baboon.

stupidity knows no bounds.

[Headshot]

I really don't get where this "there to check you paid/catch you" type of thing comes from.

There are thousands of riders up and down there every week and I would be surprised if even ten of them are stopped for a random check.

For the last two years I have ridden there every second day and not once have I been pulled over mid ride to check for permits.

That's not what he said. 

[(Deon)]

Deon your "pissed all over a thread" is my "fair comment"  nonetheless I fail to see where the toilet epithet is applicable on this one. 

 

"well received" simply means someone here thought it was a good idea and sent it to head office. In my experience that means little or nothing will happen, ever. I have firsthand experience of SANP management as you very well know. I came away unimpressed with their dismissive attitude to our cause and self congratulatory posturing.

 

I am not denying that people have incidents with baboons - in fact so have i as I said. Its a question of perception. How would you and Golefty feel about a large male baboon in your car? To me it was mildly concerning but not time to panic. They are wild animals but are largely harmless to humans. A pack of dogs would cause far more problems.

 

Again Deon, if you read what I wrote properly the first time, I would not need to respond and explain my "irrationality" time and again. The wapad comment being a glaring case in point. 

 

If all this SANP bashing causes you so much angst - why do you bother to read it?

I think the problem is you don't understand the simplicity of the issue at hand.

 

The rangers starting work at 5 in no way means that the pay point will also be operational.

[GoLefty!!]

or that it should

[Headshot]

I think the problem is you don't understand the simplicity of the issue at hand.

 

The rangers starting work at 5 in no way means that the pay point will also be operational.

 

 Oh , okay, that explains everything. Thread closed :-)

[jimmy hardtail]

Slightly off topic, I was speaking to the ranger at the gate today about the tree felling. He reckons that all the pines will be gone in about 2 years. Im not sure how accurate that may be but I will be trying to get as many rides in as I can before the remaining shaded singletrack is gone.

 

And the trails that may not be named are still rideable ( and illegal!) but will probably be gone in a week or two. So get that strava time in there before its too late!!

[Guest DieBees]

Bees, that was uncalled for

Tongue in cheek... me no mean no harm to no eddy.