Basso - too strong to be true...........

[epoh]

 

Bikemax and Widget very interesting discussion ' date='looking at the figures of Landis on that day compared to some of the figure's mentioned here it really does not look like a super human effort , very very good but not abnormal!!I am sure if you have a look at some of his other stats from other races and of that tour itself ,like the first TT for instance it would show that he is very capable of doing this.The problem I have is that if the figures on that day was aided(Drugs) what does that say about all the other drug test that he went through on the other days where he was able to show similar efforts ,and came out clean he must have gone through at least  or  20 or 30 test this year while racing and winning ,if he was clean at all of the other races why would he need to take drugs to ride at a level that appears to be within what he has shown to be capable of?[/quote']

 

hehe.. maybe Landis has been asking himself that question

 

[BikeMax]

Bikemax and Widget very interesting discussion ' date='looking at the figures of Landis on that day compared to some of the figure's mentioned here it really does not look like a super human effort , very very good but not abnormal!!I am sure if you have a look at some of his other stats from other races and of that tour itself ,like the first TT for instance it would show that he is very capable of doing this.The problem I have is that if the figures on that day was aided(Drugs) what does that say about all the other drug test that he went through on the other days where he was able to show similar efforts ,and came out clean he must have gone through at least  or  20 or 30 test this year while racing and winning ,if he was clean at all of the other races why would he need to take drugs to ride at a level that appears to be within what he has shown to be capable of?[/quote']

 

I think it is a very big assumption to make that he was racing clean on the other stages and other races.

[Canaris]

Landis used the sticky bottle, how many times?

[ZippIt]

one thing everyone forgets is that basso beat LA in a mountain stage in the TDF..and was always the last to be dropped by armstrong that year, so it makes sense that he should dominate at the giro if that was his season's goal

[DaveS]

BikeMax, just out of interest sake, what is the best power to weight ratio's you have seen from our local riders?

[BikeMax]

BikeMax' date=' just out of interest sake, what is the best power to weight ratio's you have seen from our local riders?[/quote']

 

I have seen 5.1 w//kg from local top amateurs in real data and suspect there are riders out there up to around 5.4w/kg (at threshold)

 

Top local pro riders are probably around the same range with the upper level being around 5.5w/kg and our SA pros's in Europe (Ryan Cox / Dave George) probably near to 6 w/kg when in peak form.

[DaveS]

Thats right up there. Why then are they left behind in the races, they obviously have the talent to do well, but they never seem to break through.

 

Perhaps they need to start looking at the mental aspects of cycling.

[Windbreaker]

I have seen 5.1 w//kg from local top amateurs in real data and suspect there are riders out there up to around 5.4w/kg (at threshold)

[/Quote]

 

Hmmm .... and some of us "weekend warriors" are ecstatic about our 3.5w/kg for the Red Hill ride  

Windbreaker2006-09-20 01:00:31

[BikeMax]

Thats right up there. Why then are they left behind in the races' date=' they obviously have the talent to do well, but they never seem to break through.

 

Perhaps they need to start looking at the mental aspects of cycling.

[/quote']

 

Well certainly we have seen Ryan and David climb with the top guys at races like the T de Langkawi. Local pro's at 5.5w/kg at the very top end will generally suffer with the pace up the climbs if they race in Europe and will also not be used to sustaining that power for longer durations and racing over longer distances and in much bigger and closer bunches (Talk to any of the local vets that went to worlds this year about the challenge of the bunch / weather etc)

 

European racing also tends to be more active and faster from the gun as there are so many more riders capable of winning whereas in SA Microsoft have control and can dictate the race.

[BikeMax]

I have seen 5.1 w//kg from local top amateurs in real data and suspect there are riders out there up to around 5.4w/kg (at threshold)

[/Quote]

 

Hmmm .... and some of us "weekend warriors" are ecstatic about our 3.5w/kg for the Red Hill ride  

 

Well thats not too shabby - I was at 4w/kg up Red hill but got dropped so there are certainly some SV riders at 5w/kg at the moment.

 

Just got to keep working at it - if you can get to 4.1 + then you will be ok

[widget]

' date='looking at the figures of Landis on that day compared to some of the figure's mentioned here it really does not look like a super human effort , very very good but not abnormal!![/quote']

 

Yes, I think so too - actually I think his figures fall well within set parameters we have been discussing.

 

The question posed by Pro - Cycling was "Are Bassos figures possible"

 

Grappe and Christiaan didnt think so looking at the data they had available and started to wonder.

 

Landis was (as some of the posts noted) running at around 380watts up the mountain stages, and I have seen figures of 280 odd watts average, which is quite ordinary, but Bassos figures were well over 400 watts up 6 mountains which according to Grappe was not normal given his particular ability.

 

[BikeMax]

Some more info from Allen Lim on Landis' performance..

 

Water, Plain and Simple
by Dr. Allen Lim

 

Regarding Floyd's Stage 17 performance. The day is often referred to as an 'inhuman' ride and the 'miracle' of that performance has been wrongly inferred to be a result of testosterone.

 

A closer look at the data, however, shows that Floyd's performance that day was well within his physical and mental capacity. In fact, the most important contributors to Floyd's comeback was the tactics that developed during the ride -- the hesitation by the peleton to chase and Floyd's intelligent use of water.

 

With respect to the data, Floyd averaged 281 watts for the entire 5 hour and 23 minute ride. In training before the Tour and even before the Tour of Georgia, Floyd would regularly perform 6-hour rides at 300-310 watt averages. As a point of reference, the overall average for the mountain days in the 2006 Tour de France was 269 watts +/- 16 watts, while the average in the 2005 Tour de France for the mountains was 274 watts +/- 20 watts. So Floyd's performance on Stage 17 this year was within the range that we would expect for the mountains in the Tour and below what he is capable of doing while training.

 

An important note is that the pattern of power output that Floyd exhibited on S17 was extremely similar to what he does in training. It was a much steadier power profile as he was riding alone. This is in contrast to the more variable power profile seen when riding in the pack. For a given power output, it is much easier on the body to ride at a steady pace than an undulating one. Thus, Floyd had the advantage of having a smoother ride for much of the day.

 

On the 5 climbs that day, we have direct measures of Floyd's power output and estimates of what Floyd would have had to producd if he were back in the pack. Though the times I have are not exact, and I will have to do a more careful video review to make sure things are accurate, from the previous climbing days Floyd was averaging between 370 to 400 watts while climbing with the main field. We knew going into the day that if he was in the 390 to 400 watt range, he would likely be putting time on the field. At 380 he would probably be even with the field. In fact, 380 watts was the pace the field was holding on Toussuire when he got dropped on S16. At 370 watts we knew he would be losing time. From what I could see on video, this fact held true during the race. So for the five climbs that day, the time and power outputs were as follows:

 

Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)

Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)

Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)

Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)

Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field) What is very interesting about the data from the climbs is that it shows that Floyd gained much of his time on the field not on the climbs but on the descents. He's well known as the most talented descender in the pro peleton, and he definitely put on a clinic on S17.

 

Beyond all of the power data the real reason for his victory, in my opinion, are the following two facts:

 

First, the pack just didn't take Floyd's attack seriously and waited far too long to chase. If they had chased on the second climb they would have caught him. All of the teams were just looking at each other. They just thought he would fry out there by himself. They didn't believe he could do it, but Floyd believed he could do it. More importantly, he had the numbers that said he could do it and just watched the power meter all day. He knew what pace he had to hold on the climbs; he could watch his power drop as he changed body positions, and he knew from his training and previous races the limit of what he could hold for the entire ride. Rather than worry about the field, Floyd just paced himself. And they didn't chase.

 

Because of the direct and immediate feedback from the power meter, Floyd came to an immediate and extraordinarily important realization during his ride -- that every time he poured ice cold water on his body, his power output went up. We had discussed staying hydrated and cool that morning. In fact, when I weighed him that morning, he was still underweight, and I gave him a stern warning about staying hydrated, suggesting that it was more than just bonking that hurt his performance the day before but dehydration. From our previous discussions and Floyd's own experience, the relationship between performance and heat dissipation is one that we both take extremely seriously. In fact, on most of the hot days at last year's and this year's Tour, Floyd would always have to switch shoes every other day or have his shoes dried because they would be soaked from all the water he poured on himself. We know that whether you drink the fluid or pour it on you, the bottom line is that there has to be sweat or water evaporating off your body to maintain performance. The fact of the matter is for these athletes, heat dissipation is one of the most important factors determining performance. Either blood is used to cool them or used to deliver oxygen. The cooler the body, the more blood is available for producing power. With this in mind, Floyd went through a staggering 70 water bottles that day. He drank approximately 15 carbohydrate/electrolyte bottles and poured the rest -- ice cold water -- over his head and body. In the pack, from our previous day bottle counts, we know that the average rider can only get 10 to 15 bottles. Thus, by the time the pack started chasing, most riders were already severely dehydrated and under severe heat stress. The road temperature reached 100 degrees F that day and from talking to riders like Dave Zabriskie and Christian VandeVelde who were chasing hard in the last part of the stage, the day's heat was a huge impediment to their ability to catch Floyd. For Floyd, all of that direct access to bottles from the team's follow vehicle kept him in a virtual microclimate of 70 degrees F. This is such an extraordinary advantage that it's hard to conceive of any drug that could give him such a boost. It was water, plain and simple, not testosterone that was responsible for his incredible ride. It had such a huge impact on his ride that later that night in the hotel, Floyd asked me not to mention it in my daily reports, as he wanted to keep the significance of that advantage as his own.

 

So these are some of my thoughts.
Allen

http://j.b5z.net/i/t/w/rnddot.gif

[SwissVan]

Ja amazing info which suggests it was not such an amazing feat for FL ?.

BUT can the power measuringscientistsordevices give us the answer to the million $ Question???

Where did the plastic (synthetic) testosterone came from?

Either Floyd took it knowingly, or unknowingly??

[BikeMax]

Ja amazing info which suggests it was not such an amazing feat for FL ?.

BUT can the power measuringscientistsordevices give us the answer to the million $ Question???

Where did the plastic (synthetic) testosterone came from?

Either Floyd took it knowingly' date=' or unknowingly??

[/quote']

 

No they cannot - only he and a few others may know the truth - I just hope it comes out and if he is guilty that he just comes clean and if he is not that he proves it beyond doubt.

[bruce]

I have seen 5.1 w//kg from local top amateurs in real data and suspect there are riders out there up to around 5.4w/kg (at threshold)

[/Quote]

 

Hmmm .... and some of us "weekend warriors" are ecstatic about our 3.5w/kg for the Red Hill ride  

 

Well thats not too shabby - I was at 4w/kg up Red hill but got dropped so there are certainly some SV riders at 5w/kg at the moment.

 

Just got to keep working at it - if you can get to 4.1 + then you will be ok

 

Bikemax, are you guys referring to the overall ride, or the Redhill climb?  Over what time period are these numbers?

[BikeMax]

I have seen 5.1 w//kg from local top amateurs in real data and suspect there are riders out there up to around 5.4w/kg (at threshold)

[/Quote]

 

Hmmm .... and some of us "weekend warriors" are ecstatic about our 3.5w/kg for the Red Hill ride  

 

Well thats not too shabby - I was at 4w/kg up Red hill but got dropped so there are certainly some SV riders at 5w/kg at the moment.

 

Just got to keep working at it - if you can get to 4.1 + then you will be ok

 

Bikemax' date=' are you guys referring to the overall ride, or the Redhill climb?  Over what time period are these numbers?

[/quote']

 

Bruce - the earlier numbers were for FTP but the red hill numbers were for the climb only - I was at an NP of 292 for 70kg for the 20 mins leading up to and including the climb hence the 4.1 figure. NP for the entire 2.44 ride was 246 or 3.5 w/kg.