Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Share So so cool to see you utilising your power numbers. About you FTP (improving this is a long-term challenge), there's ample room for improvement.See the "Raising The Floor" Tip here included in the article below http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/toolbox-faster-race-finishes/Thanks the article was interesting. Re FTP - i have managed to make steady gains and hope to improve further. Just to be clear, the numbers quoted in the original post are from the race files - so FTP and max 20 min efforts would be higher than these (hope that there is genetic room for improvement). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Share According to your numbers I must race in Vets as well.FTP 310W (3.41)20min Threshold P 323WVO2max power 340W (3.86) I have no idea, but why not give VA racing a try? Just to be clear though the numbers I quoted are not the numbers you are comparing above. The numbers i quoted are peak power within these races which would be substantially lower than FTP and 20 min threshold e.g. a 20 min max effort within a 3 hour race and where power is highly variable as group changes speed etc, and which is not specifically focused on hitting a maximum is very different to a standalone 20 min all out time trial type effort. I have not tested FTP for about 6 months, but the last time i did it was in the 4w/kg based on 95% of 20 min effort. I suspect it is a little higher now as stronger now then i was then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Share Welcome to VA and well done on your first two performances. Also, on sections where the pace drops, please feel free to do a turn on the front. There are far too many wheel-suckers in VAs... Particularly some Cycle Lab riders who will slam on the breaks when the get to the front of an echelon Just trying to hang on for dear life at the moment so your offer of pulling the group is humbly declined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Share Know the route. When climbs approach make sure you are in front of 10% of bunch. When they attack or go hard you don't get dead wheels that often and if in trouble most of the times you will drift back and as the climb finishes you will still be in the back of the bunch. Another interesting thing is the most attacks will not last more than 3-4minutes. Pun on most!!! not always. Save yourself for the last 20km. Usually all hell breaks lose then. Good LuckJensie thanks for this. Your comment about the 3-4 minutes duration resonates a lot with me - this is precisely in line with my experience that when i was able to hang on, or ride back after getting dropped the pace was manageable again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted February 19, 2015 Share I am also new to VA and my numbers seem ok and I can stay with the groups on a "legs are good for it" basis. But as the OP says its the slight downhills and unexpected surges that catch us new guys out.On the Fastone I was dropped on a slight downhill due to not watching the group and a gutter move, and I had to put in a 3min 400W solo effort to get back onto them who had by then slowed back down anyways, managed to finish in the sprint bunch. At the Berge n Dale, again got dropped on the downhill leading into the Cradle due to not being alert..... Moral is, race craft is very important in Vets, and I (we) can only learn this with experience. A coach who has helped a hell of a lot about what to expect, and talk about these things is Barry Austin, he has such a wealth of knowledge. Best bit of advice he has given me is to get out there and race as much as possible and make the mistakes. The horrid 30km solo ride I had to do to the Berge n Dale finish is motivation enough to NEVER get complacent towards the rear of the bunch.... I am finding the VA dynamic very cool, tough as hell, but cool. Edited February 19, 2015 by Patchelicious Wez-O, Nibali, Long Wheel Base and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez-O Posted February 19, 2015 Share Just trying to hang on for dear life at the moment so your offer of pulling the group is humbly declined HAHA Okay no stress, will give you a pass until June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oltremo Posted February 19, 2015 Share This is by far one of the better topics I have seen on the Hub recently.Lots of good points, Thanks. I have a lot of belief in Intervals, 2 and 5 min at VO2max, 10-15min at Threshhold, and Endurance rides. Regularly riding hard with stronger riders (trying to keep up) also brings quick improvements, physically and more importantly mentally. Ryinc, Nibali and Wez-O 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted February 19, 2015 Share I have no idea, but why not give VA racing a try? Just to be clear though the numbers I quoted are not the numbers you are comparing above. The numbers i quoted are peak power within these races which would be substantially lower than FTP and 20 min threshold e.g. a 20 min max effort within a 3 hour race and where power is highly variable as group changes speed etc, and which is not specifically focused on hitting a maximum is very different to a standalone 20 min all out time trial type effort. I have not tested FTP for about 6 months, but the last time i did it was in the 4w/kg based on 95% of 20 min effort. I suspect it is a little higher now as stronger now then i was then.Careful to not confuse race number and training numbers. Eg: Fastone where I finished in the bunch my average was 220w for the 2h20mins.Sunday did a training ride and averaged 250w for 4h20mins.... If you are riding in a good paceline like we had at Berg n Dale out towards Ventersdorp and back (think Wez-O was in it too), you only need push big numbers for a few seconds at a time, never more than a minute! Nevermind 20minutes, thats break away stuff Edited February 19, 2015 by Patchelicious Wez-O 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatek Posted February 19, 2015 Share I have no idea, but why not give VA racing a try? Just to be clear though the numbers I quoted are not the numbers you are comparing above. The numbers i quoted are peak power within these races which would be substantially lower than FTP and 20 min threshold e.g. a 20 min max effort within a 3 hour race and where power is highly variable as group changes speed etc, and which is not specifically focused on hitting a maximum is very different to a standalone 20 min all out time trial type effort. I have not tested FTP for about 6 months, but the last time i did it was in the 4w/kg based on 95% of 20 min effort. I suspect it is a little higher now as stronger now then i was then. I am building confidence to sit in the 1st Top10 first. I did race VA a few years ago but was dropped at about 50km. Decided to fall back and work on my fitness and drop a couple of kg's. Earlier this year I went on a training ride with a couple of elites and got dropped after 62km (only by the one, the other couldn't shake me)and both of us worked in the front. I still feel a bit uneasy riding in the bunch thats why I want to be near the front or on the side. I don't want to be the cause of the accident. If all goes well I will be in VA's next year or may be earlier. Edited February 19, 2015 by Zatek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez-O Posted February 19, 2015 Share A free tip for VA racing is WATCH COMPLETE CYCLIST!!!As the biggest and strongest team in the peloton, they often dictate the pace of the race. For example, should a break of more than 2 or so riders go up the road without a Complete rider in it, you know that the team "domestiques"/workers will get on the front and pick up the pace until they have reeled it back in. However, should a break go up the road with a Complete rider in it, more often than not the team will put riders on the front but purposefully back up the groups pace to 27km/h (or even less) in order to allow the break and their representation to go. Obviously this is just a guideline and generally the closer you get to the end of the race the crazier and more unpredictable things get. Patchelicious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez-O Posted February 19, 2015 Share If you are riding in a good paceline like we had at Berg n Dale out towards Ventersdorp and back (think Wez-O was in it too), you only need push big numbers for a few seconds at a time, never more than a minute! Nevermind 20minutes, thats break away stuff Berge en Dale was indeed a sufferfest! Patchelicious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted February 19, 2015 Share A free tip for VA racing is WATCH COMPLETE CYCLIST!!!As the biggest and strongest team in the peloton, they often dictate the pace of the race. For example, should a break of more than 2 or so riders go up the road without a Complete rider in it, you know that the team "domestiques"/workers will get on the front and pick up the pace until they have reeled it back in. However, should a break go up the road with a Complete rider in it, more often than not the team will put riders on the front but purposefully back up the groups pace to 27km/h (or even less) in order to allow the break and their representation to go. Obviously this is just a guideline and generally the closer you get to the end of the race the crazier and more unpredictable things get.I heard the same about the easy to spot Cycle Nation guys, as well as North Cliff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted February 19, 2015 Share Berge en Dale was indeed a sufferfest!The 30mins we (you) spent chasing the break down after the climb was the hardest 30mins I have ever raced and it was flat!!!.... but again learnt so much about the way the "it" works. I was questioning why the hell we were chasing down the group, until it was when we caught them and our responsibility to pull the group dropped and I spent less time on the front... it then made sense. These things you only learn while suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibali Posted February 19, 2015 Share Hope this explains where the gutter starts...Gutter.PNG If you can't ride as fast as the guy in front of you, and a gap opens (dead wheel), then you get dropped.If you can ride, then get dropped, catch up when the group slows down, and get dropped the next time it happens, that the elastic stretching, until it snaps (when you can't get back to the group again. Thanks geraldm24, makes a lot of sense. Frosty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez-O Posted February 19, 2015 Share I heard the same about the easy to spot Cycle Nation guys, as well as North Cliff?Generally the four "big teams" Complete, Cycle Nation, Kempton Truck and Northcliff will all have a rider in the breaks that stick and thus they will not need to work on the front and the pace of the main group will drop. This was particularly true at the Fast One when the pace was almost pedestrian at times during the first half of the race. Ideally what should happen when a break such as the above go up the road, the peloton excluding those teams should roll through and do short pulls at above average effort on the front to minimize the gap to the group up the road. The 30mins we (you) spent chasing the break down after the climb was the hardest 30mins I have ever raced and it was flat!!!.... but again learnt so much about the way the "it" works. I was questioning why the hell we were chasing down the group, until it was when we caught them and our responsibility to pull the group dropped and I spent less time on the front... it then made sense. These things you only learn while suffering.Yeah if we didn't catch that group we would have spent the rest of the day in no mans land between the break and the chasing group and subsequently lost bag fulls of time. It was a great race though and I enjoyed it despite the suffering... Us cyclists are bonkers like that Patchelicious and shaper 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Share Careful to not confuse race number and training numbers. Eg: Fastone where I finished in the bunch my average was 220w for the 2h20mins.Sunday did a training ride and averaged 250w for 4h20mins.... If you are riding in a good paceline like we had at Berg n Dale out towards Ventersdorp and back (think Wez-O was in it too), you only need push big numbers for a few seconds at a time, never more than a minute! Nevermind 20minutes, thats break away stuff Exactly! I find max efforts from race are lower than solo efforts in training. Patch...one thing that did catch my eye which does not make sense to me. At Fast One my average power was 178w, yours was 220w, yet i only finished 4 minutes after the main bunch and if anything probably had to put out more watts riding solo then in the bunch in those last few km. Surely the wattage difference cannot be explained by the time difference. Only possible explanations in my mind- I am a lot lighter than you (I am 70kg) - unlikely to be such a big difference?- I did a better job at wheelsucking i.e. using less watts for the same time? - Your 220w was normalised power not average power? - One of our powermeters is not accurate (I am using a Stages) - i would actually like to test its accuracy with an independent check sometime anyway Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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