Cycling Cecilia cork tree trail

[Toby Adams]

If you go there, you will have to pay a daily conservation fee (read entry fee)or you will need a Wild Card. Either way, you will pay. Also, you will be restricted to public roads, the same place the 4x4s go, nowhere else! If you do stray off the roads, you will be in the wrong. Richtersveld is not the same thing as Table Mountain National Park. An EMP is not necessary to allow a vehicle (bicycle in this case) on an existing public road in the Richtersveld National Park. It would in fact be EXACTLY the same thing as if you rode your bike on the tar road from the park entrance above Smitswinkels to Cape Point. Cecilia Forest has NO public roads. Period. To ride or drive there you need permission. That will hopefully be forthcoming if the few don't screw it up for the many.

I tried but i can't let this nonsence go unanswered

My Wild Card covers the daily conservation, which is payable at all SANParks

When we cycled in the Richtersveld National Park we did not require an Activity Card

We were also not 'restricted to public roads' as there is a 22km single track from the base of Helskloof Pass all the way to Sendelingsdrif, inside the Park

So to say 'It would in fact be EXACTLY the same thing as if you rode your bike on the tar road from the park entrance above Smitswinkels to Cape Point' is a shocking distortion of the truith

All i want is to be allowed to cycle from Constantia Neck parking area to Cecilia Forest parking area, inside the TMNP, along an existing gravel road which is utilised by the general public who are driving their vehicles to the 'Art in the Forest' ceramic studio as well as an existing footpath/cycle track nexto Rhodes Drive

No new tracks need to be cut, just open the existing route to cyclists, it cannot be difficult, no need for a EMP

[(Deon)]

I tried but i can't let this nonsence go unanswered

My Wild Card covers the daily conservation, which is payable at all SANParks

When we cycled in the Richtersveld National Park we did not require an Activity Card

We were also not 'restricted to public roads' as there is a 22km single track from the base of Helskloof Pass all the way to Sendelingsdrif, inside the Park

So to say 'It would in fact be EXACTLY the same thing as if you rode your bike on the tar road from the park entrance above Smitswinkels to Cape Point' is a shocking distortion of the truith

All i want is to be allowed to cycle from Constantia Neck parking area to Cecilia Forest parking area, inside the TMNP, along an existing gravel road which is utilised by the general public who are driving their vehicles to the 'Art in the Forest' ceramic studio as well as an existing footpath/cycle track nexto Rhodes Drive

No new tracks need to be cut, just open the existing route to cyclists, it cannot be difficult, no need for a EMP

Toby, do you want more info or not?

 

You seem quite resistant to understanding the constraints and seem incapable of working out the difference between Table Mountain National Park (a National Park surrounded by a city comprising several million people, attracting a further few hundred thousand international visitors annually and foot-traffic estimated at ±4 million annual recorded entries) and the Richtersveld National Park on furthest reaches of the country's border.

 

I'd love to explain a few points in detail to help you understand why your wishes are not as easy and as simple to attain as you believe. Remember, you are not alone but to act like you are is selfish. DJR however can understand, has chosen the side of patience, chooses to support the process and had the choice of not letting your "nonsense" go unanswered. He is wise.

[DJR]

............as there is a 22km single track from the base of Helskloof Pass all the way to Sendelingsdrif............

I'll just take this bit of good news and let it be.

[Toby Adams]

Toby, do you want more info or not?

 

You seem quite resistant to understanding the constraints and seem incapable of working out the difference between Table Mountain National Park (a National Park surrounded by a city comprising several million people, attracting a further few hundred thousand international visitors annually and foot-traffic estimated at ±4 million annual recorded entries) and the Richtersveld National Park on furthest reaches of the country's border.

 

I'd love to explain a few points in detail to help you understand why your wishes are not as easy and as simple to attain as you believe. Remember, you are not alone but to act like you are is selfish. DJR however can understand, has chosen the side of patience, chooses to support the process and had the choice of not letting your "nonsense" go unanswered. He is wise.

OK!     now we know how how frustrated we all are

 

One last request - Will you be able to give us a monthly update on the progress of the opening of 'the cork tree trail'?

 

Even if it is a 'no progress yet'

[Flowta]

I ran this trail today and there were plenty cyclists on the route... And not to mention the actual track looks pretty 'ridden in'.

 

It was "ridden in" years ago

[Slapsock]

I tried but i can't let this nonsence go unanswered

My Wild Card covers the daily conservation, which is payable at all SANParks

When we cycled in the Richtersveld National Park we did not require an Activity Card

We were also not 'restricted to public roads' as there is a 22km single track from the base of Helskloof Pass all the way to Sendelingsdrif, inside the Park

So to say 'It would in fact be EXACTLY the same thing as if you rode your bike on the tar road from the park entrance above Smitswinkels to Cape Point' is a shocking distortion of the truith

All i want is to be allowed to cycle from Constantia Neck parking area to Cecilia Forest parking area, inside the TMNP, along an existing gravel road which is utilised by the general public who are driving their vehicles to the 'Art in the Forest' ceramic studio as well as an existing footpath/cycle track nexto Rhodes Drive

No new tracks need to be cut, just open the existing route to cyclists, it cannot be difficult, no need for a EMP

I have to agree with some of this. The part from constantia nek to the beginning of cork trees is just a fire rd. It wasn't built specifically for hikers or trail joggers, its just a road. For parks to wait for an EMP bla bla is just making people jump through hoops for the sake of it. Cork trees I can sort of understand the EMP thing but since it has been there forever and used by cyclist for ages I still think they're being bit painful about the whole thing

Edited August 20, 2015 by Slapsock

[tubed]

I have to agree with some of this. The part from constantia nek to the beginning of cork trees is just a fire rd. It wasn't built specifically for hikers or trail joggers, its just a road. For parks to wait for an EMP bla bla is just making people jump through hoops for the sake of it. Cork trees I can sort of understand the EMP thing but since it has been there forever and used by cyclist for ages I still think they're being bit painful about the whole thing

You raise a good point re the road from Constantia Nek past the art gallery and exiting at Southern Cross Drive. I understand on reasonably good authority that this is in fact still a proclaimed public road which was the original public road to Constantia Nek, it has thus not officially been deproclaimed and hence it is open to the art gallery. It is only in recent years that Sanparks put a boom halfway down and at the bottom exit to Southern Cross drive to stop vehicles using the road as it is unsuitable for traffic, but as I say I understand it legally to still be a public road. But you would have to argue that with a Sanparks ranger with a badge and an attitude. You would probably win in court.

[Flowta]

You raise a good point re the road from Constantia Nek past the art gallery and exiting at Southern Cross Drive. I understand on reasonably good authority that this is in fact still a proclaimed public road which was the original public road to Constantia Nek, it has thus not officially been deproclaimed and hence it is open to the art gallery. It is only in recent years that Sanparks put a boom halfway down and at the bottom exit to Southern Cross drive to stop vehicles using the road as it is unsuitable for traffic, but as I say I understand it legally to still be a public road. But you would have to argue that with a Sanparks ranger with a badge and an attitude. You would probably win in court.

 

This is how I've ALWAYS understood it

[(Deon)]

Look, let me start with an apology. I do understand your frustration and whether you want this next bit or not, it will help you.

 

I am quite happy to provide you and anyone else with the info that I am supplied, even the information that I have to scrounge around to find. My belief is that it's not right to leave you standing at the "front-line" without the news that the war is over, which it is! The answer currently stands at "no" to the Cork tree trail, and it has been for some time.

 

Process vs expectations

Here is my side. I read on a daily basis about how SANParks should just do *this* or *that* and when the comments is approached with some details as to why it's not going to *just* happen, the blinkers come out. Then as a result, as it usually is, the blame is laid at SANParks' door to say that: 

1. don't fine us for doing something we should not be doing, and

2. your energy would be better spent catching criminals elsewhere.

 

To challenge this mindset is usually met with anger because the belief stems from the undesirable answer to fast-tracking such a request as the Cork tree trail, i.e. "because SANParks is saying "no" to a trial basis for a short, outlying, existing piece of track, we will ride there regardless and make a mockery of the consequences." Then when they take a stand and divert their resources to uphold a condition set in paper, tensions are raised and the divide just widens. That is when the process, as an inadvertent casualty loses your support and this should not be allowed to happen, which is why I take the time to try explain. You don't see anyone else apart from TokaiMTB members trying, do you?  

 

I'm sure you will agree that during negotiations, this is not a healthy situation. It's not far off from angry mobs throwing poo at innocent passers-by because results are not immediately forthcoming. So I'm sure you can see from my point-of-view that frustration is shared on both sides.

 

Nobody ever said this will be a quick process and the concept of "fast-track", or "trial basis" does not exist in govt. vocab, yet the announcement was basically passed off as 'in the bag' to a very large subscriber base and subsequently all further information or updates ceased - apart from those being sent to a closed group warning of the consequence if caught.

 

So Toby and others, I cannot blame you for your frustration, your expectations are not being met and nor are you being informed of the progress in this specific instance.. but please understand that there is only 1 process and it is a slow one. Any promises of it being sped up through trials or any other means is just not going to happen and creates unrealistic expectations. As it is, we are nearing the completion of a large portion which will have the greatest bearing on our activity. I expect progress will be more consistent when the EMP is out the way and then we can start talking about the juicy bits, being trails with public participation.

 

All the points for the approval of the Cork tree trail listed in this thread ARE valid and will certainly be presented as such. I can't see that it will be met with any overriding resistance from the public and that is where the crux of approval lies.. (also with Cape Pine so I hope this little saga does not have a negative impact but that's another story.)

 

Most importantly, when you understand the constraints of the process you can look objectively at any news that tries to raise hopes but inevitably leaves you hanging, especially if it's around a court room bench!!

[(Deon)]

You raise a good point re the road from Constantia Nek past the art gallery and exiting at Southern Cross Drive. I understand on reasonably good authority that this is in fact still a proclaimed public road which was the original public road to Constantia Nek, it has thus not officially been deproclaimed and hence it is open to the art gallery. It is only in recent years that Sanparks put a boom halfway down and at the bottom exit to Southern Cross drive to stop vehicles using the road as it is unsuitable for traffic, but as I say I understand it legally to still be a public road. But you would have to argue that with a Sanparks ranger with a badge and an attitude. You would probably win in court.

iirc, I was also given the same info but if it is still valid today?? Not sure.

 

Remember that the lease agreement between whichever group and Cape Pine regarding access to this road, as well as any maintenance they are responsible for may have a bearing. It did regarding the Cork tree trail. They are certainly a stakeholder and as such have a say in access - provided it is in the contract.

[Slapsock]

Look, let me start with an apology. I do understand your frustration and whether you want this next bit or not, it will help you.

 

I am quite happy to provide you and anyone else with the info that I am supplied, even the information that I have to scrounge around to find. My belief is that it's not right to leave you standing at the "front-line" without the news that the war is over, which it is! The answer currently stands at "no" to the Cork tree trail, and it has been for some time.

 

Process vs expectations

Here is my side. I read on a daily basis about how SANParks should just do *this* or *that* and when the comments is approached with some details as to why it's not going to *just* happen, the blinkers come out. Then as a result, as it usually is, the blame is laid at SANParks' door to say that: 

1. don't fine us for doing something we should not be doing, and

2. your energy would be better spent catching criminals elsewhere.

 

To challenge this mindset is usually met with anger because the belief stems from the undesirable answer to fast-tracking such a request as the Cork tree trail, i.e. "because SANParks is saying "no" to a trial basis for a short, outlying, existing piece of track, we will ride there regardless and make a mockery of the consequences." Then when they take a stand and divert their resources to uphold a condition set in paper, tensions are raised and the divide just widens. That is when the process, as an inadvertent casualty loses your support and this should not be allowed to happen, which is why I take the time to try explain. You don't see anyone else apart from TokaiMTB members trying, do you?  

 

I'm sure you will agree that during negotiations, this is not a healthy situation. It's not far off from angry mobs throwing poo at innocent passers-by because results are not immediately forthcoming. So I'm sure you can see from my point-of-view that frustration is shared on both sides.

 

Nobody ever said this will be a quick process and the concept of "fast-track", or "trial basis" does not exist in govt. vocab, yet the announcement was basically passed off as 'in the bag' to a very large subscriber base and subsequently all further information or updates ceased - apart from those being sent to a closed group warning of the consequence if caught.

 

So Toby and others, I cannot blame you for your frustration, your expectations are not being met and nor are you being informed of the progress in this specific instance.. but please understand that there is only 1 process and it is a slow one. Any promises of it being sped up through trials or any other means is just not going to happen and creates unrealistic expectations. As it is, we are nearing the completion of a large portion which will have the greatest bearing on our activity. I expect progress will be more consistent when the EMP is out the way and then we can start talking about the juicy bits, being trails with public participation.

 

All the points for the approval of the Cork tree trail listed in this thread ARE valid and will certainly be presented as such. I can't see that it will be met with any overriding resistance from the public and that is where the crux of approval lies.. (also with Cape Pine so I hope this little saga does not have a negative impact but that's another story.)

 

Most importantly, when you understand the constraints of the process you can look objectively at any news that tries to raise hopes but inevitably leaves you hanging, especially if it's around a court room bench!!

Thanks for the reply Deon.

 

We appreciate what you guys are doing, but I do think parks gives you the run around and doesn't give you guys the info you need eg opening of silvermine, which makes me distrust most of the stuff they tell you.

Opening constantia nek would not be hard and to be honest what concessions have they made to make it easier for one of their most valuable user groups in terms of income production since the tokai burnt down? The answer to that is nothing. You guys aren't even allowed in tokai to scope out possible routes and get the trail plan ready, what kind of give and take is that?

 

I think what's missing here is dates. It would be nice to know when parks got the proposal, when the public participation will happen etc but I'm willing to bet they won't even commit to that because there is no will to get this done any sooner. I don't hold much hope of having trails in tokai for several years, hopefully I'm wrong

Edited August 20, 2015 by Slapsock

[Goosebay]

I have to agree with some of this. The part from constantia nek to the beginning of cork trees is just a fire rd. It wasn't built specifically for hikers or trail joggers, its just a road. For parks to wait for an EMP bla bla is just making people jump through hoops for the sake of it. Cork trees I can sort of understand the EMP thing but since it has been there forever and used by cyclist for ages I still think they're being bit painful about the whole thing

 Seeing slapsock has been around forever, and therefore the trail longer than forever - we should treat it as public right of way.  Use David W attitude (or rather example) re Die Leer and the controversy there - after all he is a lawyer

 

Deon - this thing with Tokai has gone on foreeeevvvvveeeer.  From the days of ......./? I can't even remember anymore - sent all the stuff to Headshot.  Time for a new take or attitude.  Get some really bigshots on your side and exert some serious pressure.  There isn't only 1 process - that process is and has been controlled by them for ages.

[(Deon)]

No problem! We do have the dates minuted by our consultant and approved by Table Mountain National Park so it's happening whether the public believes it or not.

 

Goosebay, out of interest what is your history?

[(Deon)]

 

Deon - this thing with Tokai has gone on foreeeevvvvveeeer.  From the days of ......./? I can't even remember anymore - sent all the stuff to Headshot.  Time for a new take or attitude.  Get some really bigshots on your side and exert some serious pressure.  There isn't only 1 process - that process is and has been controlled by them for ages.

This is so important to the discussion around Tokai, not the bigshots stuff but the history of trying. 

 

It was only in November 2011 that it became a head-office issue, no longer a one-man vendetta against a certain group of users... or is this an inconvenient bit of history?

 

Edit: oh and thanks for the vote of confidence.

Edited August 20, 2015 by (Deon)

[Goosebay]

This is so important to the discussion around Tokai, not the bigshots stuff but the history of trying. 

 

It was only in November 2011 that it became a head-office issue, no longer a one-man vendetta against a certain group of users... or is this an inconvenient bit of history?

 

Edit: oh and thanks for the vote of confidence.

Actually before 2011 did they already waste taxpayers money by flying down a delegation from Pretoria to 'appease' those who are paying their salaries.  A PR exercise that they are very very good at.  History can be sometimes longer than what you think.

 

Look - you guys have been at it for a while - hopefully a lot of lessons have been learnt.  Sometimes you also need to realise that you need a different strategy.  So while you plod along spend some energy at looking at other alternatives.  I hear there is a Protea Starcraft Grandmaster player in the Southern Suburbs - they are very good at strategising and adapting very quickly

[Goosebay]

No problem! We do have the dates minuted by our consultant and approved by Table Mountain National Park so it's happening whether the public believes it or not.

 

Goosebay, out of interest what is your history?

Was involved in the days when the mushroom collectors, dog walkers and some cyclists opposed the felling.  There were some key brains then, ex foresters and profs, guys I really respect.  Some have passed away.  There is not agreement on the how the fynbos rejuvenation should go. 

 

I live in a fynbos area - and love it - green all year round and provides awesome trails - but as you said you live in a city, a few more people.  I found it frustrating when the custodians of the slopes' experts are not prepared to listen to other experts with a different view.