Exclusive Ride Report: FOX Live Valve Active Suspension System

[Hairy]

I personally find this very exciting!!!!!

 

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/exclusive-ride-report-fox-live-valve-active-suspension-system.html

 

http://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb12504511/p5pb12504511.jpg

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Same - some VERY interesting times ahead for suspension!!! 

[rock]

http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/657542/resized_ancient-aliens-invisible-something-meme-generator-alien-technology-2cf15b.jpg

[Raydek]

Suppose in the not too distant future the bikes we ride now will be 'hipster' and these will be the norm... exciting times ahead.

[Raydek]

Just noticed something.. The linkage/pivot that is attached to the rear eye of the shock is done so horizontally, surely the pivot cant travel perfectly straight? Surely it should be mounted with the eye vertically..

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Just noticed something.. The linkage/pivot that is attached to the rear eye of the shock is done so horizontally, surely the pivot cant travel perfectly straight? Surely it should be mounted with the eye vertically..

I see what you mean, but I'm sure the designers at Kona got the rear end stiff enough for it to not be a problem. Either that, or they recognised that there was going to be a teensy bit of flex in the shock mounting, so they designed around it. 

 

From what the reviews say, the rear end is massively stiff so I don't think it's a problem. 

[Paul Ruinaard]

What we are riding now is going to be considered antiques in the next 5 years.

[Skylark]

Amazing can just imagine how awesome this must be, ultimate plushness with incredible pedaling. Just not looking forward to hearing the servicing costs.

 

Initial outlay for the fork/shock system will probably be in the region of R30-40k considering what their non electronic top end fork/shock sell for?

[Iwan Kemp]

What we are riding now is going to be considered antiques in the next 5 years.

 

...and we will probably regret it. My problem with these clever suspension systems is that it is reactive. It responds to what is already happening. Brain, Lapierre E:i, 4x4 electronic ascent...clever and a cool topic a round the fire, but the jury is still out on it's real-life performance and benefit.

 

So you're riding your Live Valve (insert Brain / E:i / whatever else in here) bike. It has locked out because you're climbing. Dropping into the trail it needs to FIRST log a spike before opening up to what is happening. Yes, it does it in a split second, but the fact is the spike has already spiked. Plus often these will register a spike on one small section unlock or change auto to full open mode and all it was was 1m in your climb with a bit of rough stuff. 

 

Locking it out yourself means you KNOW it's locked and you adjust your riding to it. The last thing you want is your suspension doing something funny in the middle of a techy section.

 

Early Brain was notorious for it. 

 

This is the disaster of CTD all over again and on a much higher and more expensive level. Great for Joe Soap enjoying his riding and is not into bike settings, levers and adjustments. MANY people will never in their live touch the rebound dial. This will probably work for them. For the guy who jas taken the time to understand suspension and likes playing around with settings this won't work. Can't see many real pro racers ever riding these other than in over-ride mode to please the sponsors.

 

BUT, maybe in 5 years time bikes will come with lazer-freakin-beams to track the terrain in advance and adjust the suspension accordingly BEFORE the change was needed.

 

**************

4x4 Clever Bits

 

Had it on my Ranger, used it a total of 5 times and 3 of those were to show a mate this nifty trick. But it suffers the same fate: it could only respond to what was ALREADY happening. Does not have eyes to look ahead and adjust for what is coming. You first had to hit a section for it to know it's going a little fast, full auto descend was either too slow or "oh, sheet".

 

**************

No thanks. I'd rather spend my money on a bike with a sorted suspension design and sorted (manual) shock than on one that's constantly making changes.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

So true as well, Iwan.

[marko35s]

...and we will probably regret it. My problem with these clever suspension systems is that it is reactive. It responds to what is already happening. Brain, Lapierre E:i, 4x4 electronic ascent...clever and a cool topic a round the fire, but the jury is still out on it's real-life performance and benefit.

 

So you're riding your Live Valve (insert Brain / E:i / whatever else in here) bike. It has locked out because you're climbing. Dropping into the trail it needs to FIRST log a spike before opening up to what is happening. Yes, it does it in a split second, but the fact is the spike has already spiked. Plus often these will register a spike on one small section unlock or change auto to full open mode and all it was was 1m in your climb with a bit of rough stuff.

 

Locking it out yourself means you KNOW it's locked and you adjust your riding to it. The last thing you want is your suspension doing something funny in the middle of a techy section.

 

Early Brain was notorious for it.

 

This is the disaster of CTD all over again and on a much higher and more expensive level. Great for Joe Soap enjoying his riding and is not into bike settings, levers and adjustments. MANY people will never in their live touch the rebound dial. This will probably work for them. For the guy who jas taken the time to understand suspension and likes playing around with settings this won't work. Can't see many real pro racers ever riding these other than in over-ride mode to please the sponsors.

 

BUT, maybe in 5 years time bikes will come with lazer-freakin-beams to track the terrain in advance and adjust the suspension accordingly BEFORE the change was needed.

 

**************

4x4 Clever Bits

 

Had it on my Ranger, used it a total of 5 times and 3 of those were to show a mate this nifty trick. But it suffers the same fate: it could only respond to what was ALREADY happening. Does not have eyes to look ahead and adjust for what is coming. You first had to hit a section for it to know it's going a little fast, full auto descend was either too slow or "oh, sheet".

 

**************

No thanks. I'd rather spend my money on a bike with a sorted suspension design and sorted (manual) shock than on one that's constantly making changes.

To continue your 4x4 analogy Landrover were the first manufacturer to design and fit traction control (to the early Discovery 2 models) and it suffered from the issues you have noted. The wheels had to spin before the system had a bit of a think and got around to dealing with the terrain correctly. Often this was just a split second too late to be optimal and often it left drivers stuck.

Luckily for owners of the D2 LR had left all the central diff lock components in place and all you had to do was add the linkage and you were good to go LR really paid the price for being first to market with an innovative new system.

Over time though they, and other manufacturers, tweaked and improved on the system and these days it is extremely efficient (the Quadradrive 2 on jeeps is very good) but still if you want true go anywhere ability the *go to* system is a whole bunch of mechanical diff locks controlled by the driver.

There is a point when electronic/computer wizardry is trumped by human feel for the situation at hand, assuming the human involved is competent.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

To continue your 4x4 analogy Landrover were the first manufacturer to design and fit traction control (to the early Discovery 2 models) and it suffered from the issues you have noted. The wheels had to spin before the system had a bit of a think and got around to dealing with the terrain correctly. Often this was just a split second too late to be optimal and often it left drivers stuck.

Luckily for owners of the D2 LR had left all the central diff lock components in place and all you had to do was add the linkage and you were good to go LR really paid the price for being first to market with an innovative new system.

Over time though they, and other manufacturers, tweaked and improved on the system and these days it is extremely efficient (the Quadradrive 2 on jeeps is very good) but still if you want true go anywhere ability the *go to* system is a whole bunch of mechanical diff locks controlled by the driver.

There is a point when electronic/computer wizardry is trumped by human feel for the situation at hand, assuming the human involved is competent.

[Paul Ruinaard]

...and we will probably regret it. My problem with these clever suspension systems is that it is reactive. It responds to what is already happening. Brain, Lapierre E:i, 4x4 electronic ascent...clever and a cool topic a round the fire, but the jury is still out on it's real-life performance and benefit.

 

So you're riding your Live Valve (insert Brain / E:i / whatever else in here) bike. It has locked out because you're climbing. Dropping into the trail it needs to FIRST log a spike before opening up to what is happening. Yes, it does it in a split second, but the fact is the spike has already spiked. Plus often these will register a spike on one small section unlock or change auto to full open mode and all it was was 1m in your climb with a bit of rough stuff. 

 

Locking it out yourself means you KNOW it's locked and you adjust your riding to it. The last thing you want is your suspension doing something funny in the middle of a techy section.

 

Early Brain was notorious for it. 

 

This is the disaster of CTD all over again and on a much higher and more expensive level. Great for Joe Soap enjoying his riding and is not into bike settings, levers and adjustments. MANY people will never in their live touch the rebound dial. This will probably work for them. For the guy who jas taken the time to understand suspension and likes playing around with settings this won't work. Can't see many real pro racers ever riding these other than in over-ride mode to please the sponsors.

 

BUT, maybe in 5 years time bikes will come with lazer-freakin-beams to track the terrain in advance and adjust the suspension accordingly BEFORE the change was needed.

 

**************

4x4 Clever Bits

 

Had it on my Ranger, used it a total of 5 times and 3 of those were to show a mate this nifty trick. But it suffers the same fate: it could only respond to what was ALREADY happening. Does not have eyes to look ahead and adjust for what is coming. You first had to hit a section for it to know it's going a little fast, full auto descend was either too slow or "oh, sheet".

 

**************

No thanks. I'd rather spend my money on a bike with a sorted suspension design and sorted (manual) shock than on one that's constantly making changes.

Hmm,

 

Not sure if i am going to stoop to calling you a luddite but if you look at the review and read how quick this thing is responding then you will see it is in milliseconds which is way ahead of your capacity to sense it. And that is in the current version. Production will likely be more refined and quicker. Your experience will be that the fork opened.

 

So here goes again - having ridden Specialized since 2005 and all the Brain iterations in between even at a mechanical level a solution that stabilised the pedalling platform was revolutionary. It is now so smooth and refined that no one, including most of the manufacturers (and podiums for that matter) debate the efficacy of the technology. But i dont think you are debating that.

 

So what you say may be valid for version 1 of this. But being software (and you need to understand this cause this is the major advantage) you upload a new firmware release when available and you have just upgraded your suspension to v 2 and v 3 etc.

 

You can't do that on mechanical solutions. No way. You need to buy a new fork.

 

And that SIr is where the magic lies cause you have now decoupled the hardware and mechanicals from the software on top of it. That is the revolutionary bit. 

 

And as you get more processing power and more accelerometers (read the internet of things) and terrain tracking GPS's that know where you are - it will become more intelligent. Its just Moore's law applied to MTB technology, which face it, is very analogue and mechanical. External gearboxes and cables and all are not high tech. You reached a plateau with that a long time ago. 

 

XTR DI2 starts to give you an inkling of what is possible.

 

And this flood will happen as the technology is ripe for picking and the solutions that will be brought to market have yet to be invented. Much like the flood of wearables and activity monitors - that is data collection. When you start to collate the data and act on it - that is intelligence.

 

I will summarise this with an example of a very simple active air suspension in a current Landrover Discovery or a Merc ML which when faced with corrugations floats over it like they are not there. But the normal spring coil and damper system loosens your fillings. I had this exact experience lately. And it was a very real and graphic demonstration of a partially active air suspension.

 

Now extend this to a much smaller and at the same time more advance thing like an MTB Fork and you can imagine that you with your mechanical based system will maybe at iteration 1 of the fork have parity with active one like in this article.

 

But that will be closed as they fix and refine it. And to do that they analyse its data it collected and then correct how it is working through putting new software/firmware on it.

 

At version 2 (which is a software upgrade) they will meet and exceed you and after that you will be in their mirrors.

 

Its just a fact of advancements in technology.

 

Its like the Tesla - you park it in the garage - overnight it downloads a new code release and you have 150km more range, a new driving mode and 30 more KW.

 

Further - when you tune your  car these days you dont try and buy cams and carbs and branches and things - first step is an override chip on the ECU which gives you more power and better economy.

 

I can even see a world where you will get software hackers who will remap your MTB's suspension for you rather than get involved in the valves and springs on the fork. So for a change in racing terrain you will download new firmware.

 

And therein lies the magic - this thing will again change the way we ride. Like the Brain was capable of (stabilising a 100mm fully suspended bike). It is a fact of the industry.

 

I do hear you that you are not really that keen to climb on the first bus leaving the station with this technology. Sure I dont think that is wrong. But you will eventually (and I dont know how many pedalling years you have) be riding a bike with this on.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I'll get the popcorn...

 

Takers?

 

BTW, IQ - Iwan has extensive experience in testing MTB kit, suspension tech and new frame designs and componentry... Not just a case of "I've owned every iteration"

[raptor-22]

Iq I agree with you. This is really good tech on paper and the first review seems to vindicate the design philosophy.

 

Where I can see the step change with this tech is the integration of garmin rearward looking radar for early warning being adapted for a forward looking terrain following function. Need to check the frequency the garmin unit uses and if it has sufficient resolution to be useful in such an application but having a terrain following radar feeding information to suspension then we'd have a truelly active system.

 

But this live system from fox has such a fast reaction time I would hazard a guess that terrain following radar won't add much benefit but will add significant cost

[raptor-22]

I'll get the popcorn...

 

Takers?

 

BTW, IQ - Iwan has extensive experience in testing MTB kit, suspension tech and new frame designs and componentry... Not just a case of "I've owned every iteration"

 

??!

Does that invalidate everyone else's opinion ?