Epicbikeshop Cape Town . .VAT refund missing!

[raptor-22]

Why are you trying so hard to discredit the OP? I'm trying hard to avoid joining the debate, but your VAT knowledge is not as good as some of the other people in this debate (you clearly have a fair amount of practical experience from which you have drawn your own conclusions/assumptions, but limited or no theoretical knowledge of the Act - this is fairly standard for importers so no offense intended at all). The chances are pretty good we would have found you (and most other people in this debate) in the "Nothing to Declare" line at the airport with your holiday shopping in your bags at some point. 

 

I have also seen many suggestions on the hub on how to get around VAT and Duties on your overseas bike puchases (not from ICycling, but as a general comment) so it is amazing to see all these people so worried about following the rules on re-entry into his home country. I'm not saying it's correct if it wasn't declared (which it clearly isn't), but that is his and his home country's concern and not the hub.

 

 

You can exit via Nothing to declare if you have spent less than R5000-00 on goods during your trip. This value includes gifts

[Edge_Design]

You can exit via Nothing to declare if you have spent less than R5000-00 on goods during your trip. This value includes gifts

 

I am aware there are rules around what needs to be declared - I'm not sure everyone complies with them though. Buy the Ipod/Ipad/camera etc and throw away the box so you can claim it was used and all of those games people play.

[GameSetMatch]

You still have not answered the question did you pay the Vat in the region you live? Till you have answered that (with proof) your argument is leaving out some very important facts.

From you opening statement:

"When I went to the VAT Refund office the person working there checked the bicycle and when she took a look at the invoice she told me that the VAT number of the store was missing from the letter."

You talk about a Invoice there with no Vat number and it been a letter. You expect Epic bike shop to know the Vat rules and regulation which as they appear not to be Vat registers are not part of the Vat system? Is it not safe to assume that they may know as much as you do or less in this regard?

 

For educational purposes for hubbers - A person / company who know the Vat system would know that the Invoice needs to say TAX INVOICE with shop name and address along with Vat number and date. For amounts over Rxxxx.xx the other person /companies name should also appear with address and preferable with that companies Vat number.  Can even be hand written - an example from a Invoice book I purchased at either pick ’n Pay or CNA!

 

Mr Wheeler(presume its you)...What has Europe got to do with Epic bike shops VAT here in the land of SA? You hacking away avoiding the actual topic in question. You say you have a business, do you practise what you preach? Gees man,jump off the train of smoke and mirrors and jump on the train of facts

[KingTJ]

I had to reproduce an invoice, which I hurriedly typed and then add in those details for him - Now at this point I am both trying to help Americo and also really avoid breaking the law - So im pretty torn here as I'm actually a nice guy and would rather help my cuctomer so I added the VAT number of my fathers business (But in the end made a mistake on the last digit ) - I think that was actually a good thing as in the end the law was not broken and Americo ended up with a piece of paper that is not actually my legal invoice. I'll admit this was not ideal and yes it was wrong and yes im going to hell but I'm happy it didnt work out and was rejected.

 

Zilla, thanks for clearing that up....I can understand your error., a foolish one, but not a mischievous one.

 

NB, you can register for VAT as a Sole Proprieter, any accountant/tax practitioner can assist  you with it..I would recommend you do it, as it will save you money in the long run , 

[Edge_Design]

speculation getting out of control here and just plain silly.

 

its already been explained that VAT has to bee charged and is built into the price. That is by law.

 

Which law? 

[GameSetMatch]

I also do not bait market like Americo claims to tourists.

 

I do have a second business whose VAT registration is currently pending, as stated above. Its not been pending for 6 months, first I have to set up a company, change company name etc etc, register for VAT, Import/Export licenses etc...it takes a while trust me.

 

I fully intended to re-invoice Americo under new company name with correct VAT number, however his impatience has created this mess. Im not so sure i would like to follow that through anymore.

Zille, we all make mistakes we just human. I suggest you send Americo the invoice with correct VAT number and get it behind you. Theres no winners or loosers here its just the right thing to do.

[Americo]

To answer your questions:

 

No I did not promise you a VAT refund, nor assure you this would be possible. I said you could try a claim. NOR did you ever buy the bike or ask about the cost ex VAT and buy in on this premise. We agreed a deal and spec and after you bought it you mentioned you want to claim the VAT.

 

My ORIGINAL invoice to DID NOT say TAX Invoice nor does it specifically itemise the VAT portion. While at the airport Americo called me numerous times and demanded another invoice with all of the details he needed on it. It was an extremely busy Friday if I recall...

 

I had to reproduce an invoice, which I hurriedly typed and then add in those details for him - Now at this point I am both trying to help Americo and also really avoid breaking the law - So im pretty torn here as I'm actually a nice guy and would rather help my cuctomer so I added the VAT number of my fathers business (But in the end made a mistake on the last digit ) - I think that was actually a good thing as in the end the law was not broken and Americo ended up with a piece of paper that is not actually my legal invoice. I'll admit this was not ideal and yes it was wrong and yes im going to hell but I'm happy it didnt work out and was rejected.

 

You know how the saying goes, when you try help someone out of the *** then you help yourself into it.

 

Since Americo has dodged all questions about paying EU VAT we can assume he has not paid his countries VAT and so avoided paying vat there. He has paid vat Legally in SA and thats fair.

 

I do not hold Americo's VAT and cannot pay back the money. We made a deal that was never based on a vat return, and it was concluded mutally.

 

From SARS website:

 

The sole proprietorship is not a legal entity. The business has no existence separate from the owner who is called the proprietor. The owner must include the income from such business in his or her own income tax return and is responsible for the payment of taxes thereon. A sole proprietorship can operate under the name of its owner or it can do business under a fictitious name. The fictitious name is simply a trade name--it does not create a legal entity separate from the sole proprietor owner.

 

I submit my tax returns, pay my tax and the world goes round and round...

 

To answer your questions:

 

No I did not promise you a VAT refund, nor assure you this would be possible. I said you could try a claim. NOR did you ever buy the bike or ask about the cost ex VAT and buy in on this premise. We agreed a deal and spec and after you bought it you mentioned you want to claim the VAT.

 

My ORIGINAL invoice to DID NOT say TAX Invoice nor does it specifically itemise the VAT portion. While at the airport Americo called me numerous times and demanded another invoice with all of the details he needed on it. It was an extremely busy Friday if I recall...

 

I had to reproduce an invoice, which I hurriedly typed and then add in those details for him - Now at this point I am both trying to help Americo and also really avoid breaking the law - So im pretty torn here as I'm actually a nice guy and would rather help my cuctomer so I added the VAT number of my fathers business (But in the end made a mistake on the last digit ) - I think that was actually a good thing as in the end the law was not broken and Americo ended up with a piece of paper that is not actually my legal invoice. I'll admit this was not ideal and yes it was wrong and yes im going to hell but I'm happy it didnt work out and was rejected.

 

You know how the saying goes, when you try help someone out of the *** then you help yourself into it.

 

Since Americo has dodged all questions about paying EU VAT we can assume he has not paid his countries VAT and so avoided paying vat there. He has paid vat Legally in SA and thats fair.

 

I do not hold Americo's VAT and cannot pay back the money. We made a deal that was never based on a vat return, and it was concluded mutally.

 

From SARS website:

 

The sole proprietorship is not a legal entity. The business has no existence separate from the owner who is called the proprietor. The owner must include the income from such business in his or her own income tax return and is responsible for the payment of taxes thereon. A sole proprietorship can operate under the name of its owner or it can do business under a fictitious name. The fictitious name is simply a trade name--it does not create a legal entity separate from the sole proprietor owner.

 

I submit my tax returns, pay my tax and the world goes round and round...

 

 

I also do not bait market like Americo claims to tourists.

 

I do have a second business whose VAT registration is currently pending, as stated above. Its not been pending for 6 months, first I have to set up a company, change company name etc etc, register for VAT, Import/Export licenses etc...it takes a while trust me.

 

I fully intended to re-invoice Americo under new company name with correct VAT number, however his impatience has created this mess. Im not so sure i would like to follow that through anymore.

 

 

The OP makes it look like entrapment - sold a bike at the price point of Ex Vat to make it look enticing - Not at all - in all our discussions about the bike it was sold as if he was a natural SA person. Only at the very end did he mention he wanted to claim the vat back and I said he should be able to but wasnt clear. It wasnt a deal breaker for him. Now he's turned that around.

I'm sorry Zilla but you should be really reading better the emails we exchanged if you don't remember how things went. or are you lying again in purpose?

 

"No I did not promise you a VAT refund, nor assure you this would be possible. I said you could try a claim. NOR did you ever buy the bike or ask about the cost ex VAT and buy in on this premise. We agreed a deal and spec and after you bought it you mentioned you want to claim the VAT."

 

"The OP makes it look like entrapment - sold a bike at the price point of Ex Vat to make it look enticing - Not at all - in all our discussions about the bike it was sold as if he was a natural SA person. Only at the very end did he mention he wanted to claim the vat back and I said he should be able to but wasnt clear. It wasnt a deal breaker for him. Now he's turned that around."

 

Email dated February 11 2015 - 6 days before the bike was bought

http://i62.tinypic.com/2i6chao.png

 

http://i58.tinypic.com/apbri8.jpg

[Edge_Design]

Based on the below I don't think a new invoice when the registration comes through will be relevant if he left at the end of April. 

 

A VAT refund will only be considered where all of the following requirements are met:

• The purchaser must be a qualifying purchaser;

• The goods must be exported within 90 days from the date of the tax invoice;

• The VAT inclusive total of all purchases exported at one time must exceed the minimum of R250;

• The request for a refund, together with the relevant documentation, must be received by the VRA within three months of date of export; and

• The goods must be exported through one of the 43 designated commercial ports by the qualifying purchaser or the qualifying purchaser’s cartage contractor.

[UpShift_Cycles]

Americo I am sorry you were not able to claim back the VAT with my original invoice. I was going to replace that with a new one for you to reclaim your money when my new business is VAT registered.

 

After being called a liar many times I am now not going to help you. End of story.

Liar was probably not the correct word to use but I have spoken to you on many occasions and know you wouldnt have done this on purpose. But I really think you should lay this to rest by sending the invoice.

[velomonatiCT]

im kind of with zille on this dude

 

my original post was :

 

your best hope is that they honour their word to refund you because even if the goods are now out of RSA I don't think they are under any kind of legal obligation regarding the VAT other than the agreement you struck with them

 

keep smiling be nice and hope for the best

 

I assumed you had some kind of agreement on the VAT..

 

but zilla has a point ( which he presents very honestly in my opinion) you haven't been very nice about this matter and I run a sole trader business and I would after 10 pages of flaming him and his business tell you the same thing he has ..

 

maybe this wasn't the forum to take this to  ..

[Skylark]

I still don't get this, if Epicbikeshop is such a saint why didn't he just come clean at the beginning of this thread?

 

Instead he's bad mouthing the op and constantly trying to change the focus to whether the op is paying vat in EU(which is neither here nor there). Something else going on here.

 

If I was Zilla and at the time I sold the bike to the op I neither alluded to nor agreed to providing an invoice suitable for claiming the vat back, then I'd have come forward very early on in this thread stated that basic fact without any need to bad mouth the customer and then apologised that the op couldn't use the invoice as is natural to assume that the op would be a bit miffed. Nothing like that happened and now it's a ****ing Pr disaster.

 

People have got some really whacky ideas about paying vat in one country and another country offsetting that against their vat, you claim the vat when leaving a country and when you arrive home you pay the vat rate of your home country, your home country couldn't care less if you paid or didn't pay vat elsewhere, how the hell are they going accurately to verify that. The only reason they refund tax to tourists leaving the country is they can verify that the tax invoice is linked to a real vat number and that the invoice contains all the info required by local laws to issue a refund.

[ahp005]

I still don't get this, if Epicbikeshop is such a saint why didn't he just come clean at the beginning of this thread?

 

Instead he's bad mouthing the op and constantly trying to change the focus to whether the op is paying vat in EU(which is neither here nor there). Something else going on here.

 

If I was Zilla and at the time I sold the bike to the op I neither alluded to nor agreed to providing an invoice suitable for claiming the vat back, then I'd have come forward very early on in this thread stated that basic fact without any need to bad mouth the customer and then apologised that the op couldn't use the invoice as is natural to assume that the op would be a bit miffed. Nothing like that happened and now it's a ****ing Pr disaster.

 

People have got some really whacky ideas about paying vat in one country and another country offsetting that against their vat, you claim the vat when leaving a country and when you arrive home you pay the vat rate of your home country, your home country couldn't care less if you paid or didn't pay vat elsewhere, how the hell are they going accurately to verify that. The only reason they refund tax to tourists leaving the country is they can verify that the tax invoice is linked to a real vat number and that the invoice contains all the info required by local laws to issue a refund.

Exactly can't agree with you more. 

[YUMEYA]

I would love to see the reactions if this had happend to a Safa in a foreign country.  

[Tumbleweed]

I would love to see the reactions if this had happend to a Safa in a foreign country.  

 

Would be deported...

[Americo]

Americo I am sorry you were not able to claim back the VAT with my original invoice. I was going to replace that with a new one for you to reclaim your money when my new business is VAT registered.

 

After being called a liar many times I am now not going to help you. End of story.

 

I'm calling you a liar???

 

You said I will get the VAT back at the airport,you knew since the beginning I wasn't from South Africa and going to leave after few months. You gave me an invoice without VAT on it saying that it was all I needed to get the REFUND,then you gave me another one with a fake VAT and now you're trying to do whatever is possible to escape the issue.

 

After 6 months you're saying that you will apply for a new VAT when you told me that you already did few months ago when I found out from the TAX refund office that the VAT on the invoice was not valid.Now you're playing the victim saying you won't pay the VAT because I'm calling you a liar?

 

 

Also stop with your fake affirmations,I have no interest on saying things that didn't happen and I have all the emails we exchanged to prove it. I'd really like to send it to an Admin so they can see how things went here.

 

Let me quote some of the things you wrote.If those are not lie what are they?

 

 

We spoke about a VAT return at the airport, I said I would provide as much as I could on paper but was not aware of the complete list of requirements. My Invoice does not state Tax Invoice or show a VAT number.

 

http://i61.tinypic.com/fcuwk1.jpg

 

 

Email dated February 11 2015 - 6 days before the bike was bought

 

"No I did not promise you a VAT refund, nor assure you this would be possible. I said you could try a claim. NOR did you ever buy the bike or ask about the cost ex VAT and buy in on this premise. We agreed a deal and spec and after you bought it you mentioned you want to claim the VAT."

 

 

"The OP makes it look like entrapment - sold a bike at the price point of Ex Vat to make it look enticing - Not at all - in all our discussions about the bike it was sold as if he was a natural SA person. Only at the very end did he mention he wanted to claim the vat back and I said he should be able to but wasnt clear. It wasnt a deal breaker for him. Now he's turned that around."

 

http://i62.tinypic.com/2i6chao.jpg

 

http://i58.tinypic.com/apbri8.jpg

 

"Epic Bike Shop as it stands is now under new management, the 10 year old cc has not been dissolved and I could not take that over and so I started up as a Sole Proprietor. My accountant will advise when its required to register this for VAT or change the entity type "

 

http://i61.tinypic.com/j7volw.jpg

 

Isn't this enough for all you to understand what Zilla is doing here?If not let me tell you all,he sold me the bike knowing I wasn't going to get back the VAT and now he is trying to deny the facts and saying that he won't pay the VAT because I shared with you the issue. 

 

For the people defending him,I'd love to see what you'd do if this happened to you

[Patchelicious]

I have done business with Zilla, his brother and father over the years many times both as a client and as a supplier.

 

Edit: They are stand up guys and I find it hard to believe that things were done maliciously.

 

Zilla, you have stated your case. I doubt that you will lose business due to this. So don't lose sleep over this.