Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I know this... but some people don't that was the point of my post. Thaba hosted a provincial XCO race a few years back UCI graded, the complaints from that race were unreal coming from "top racers" as the course was brutal! I am in 100% agreement with you, just not the OP and his trail bashing views on other peoples hard work and lack of actual grading principals. That's the key here. As well as the lack of properly technical trails that those "top racers" can skill themselves up on. We're a nation of gravel donkeys (mostly) who have a heart attack at the sight of a foot high bridge. That needs to change, if we have any hope of fielding proper MTB riders like Burry etc.
Samurai Pizza Cat Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 I don't think you have ridden Thaba either a) All of it b) In a long while... Dude, I love Thaba and this whole thread started because I defended Thaba's prices. There's just nothing there that makes me lie in bed and night and think: " Next time I'm going to do 'this' and 'that' and maybe then, I'll be able to ride that". The rumored flow trail that they are going to build might change my mind.
the nerd Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Dude, I love Thaba and this whole thread started because I defended Thaba's prices. There's just nothing there that makes me lie in bed and night and think: " Next time I'm going to do 'this' and 'that' and maybe then, I'll be able to ride that". The rumored flow trail that they are going to build might change my mind. The beauty with Thaba is the fact that you can mix and match and ride and part of any loop of trail you want.
Danger Dassie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Personally I don't see the merit in classifying xcm/xco trails (which is predominant in Gauteng) according to DHI ratings. Are XCO tracks internationally graded according to this IMBwhatever system? You're talking about race courses, totally different to trail/bike parks. A race course utilises parts of these for events.
Rapunzel Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Nobody said it was. That sort of distinction, when it comes to trail difficulty, is misleading. There is no such thing as a "downhill trail" or an "enduro trail" - there are trails of various technical difficulty, which are graded according to the features that they have. You can have a double black XC course quite easily (some of the XCO courses come to mind) What it IS about, is grading the trails PROPERLY, regardless of the type of bike that you ride. IMBA allows that through the guidelines. Myles, you've hit on a very valid point about grading trails properly. I can't quite get my head around the fact that IMBA grading doesn't address different styles of trail. As you say, a black trail which can be manicured with jumps (doubles, table tops, ...) or it can be gnarly with roots, rock outcrops and drop offs. The two trails are suited for different style riders and bikes yet the IMBA grading does not cater for this.
Danger Dassie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 That's the key here. As well as the lack of properly technical trails that those "top racers" can skill themselves up on. We're a nation of gravel donkeys (mostly) who have a heart attack at the sight of a foot high bridge. That needs to change, if we have any hope of fielding proper MTB riders like Burry etc. Really? ... Maybe go checkout the schools series events sometime.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Myles, you've hit on a very valid point about grading trails properly. I can't quite get my head around is that IMBA grading doesn't address different styles of trail. As you say, a black trail which can be manicured with jumps (doubles, table tops, ...) or it can be gnarly with roots, rock outcrops and drop offs. The two trails are suited for different style riders and bikes yet the IMBA grading does not cater for this.okay - different styles of trail (insofar as DH vs AM vs XC) - no such thing insofar as grading is concerned. It's all in terms of difficulty. Certain types of bikes are more suited to doing one or another thing better than something else, but that's up to the rider and has nothing to do with grading - more the type of riding that the rider wants to do. XC = bias towards efficiency. DH = biased towards going down as fast as possible. You should (IMO) only ever grade a trail according to it's difficulty. Not what type of bike is required to ride the thing, or have the most fun on. Yes, Dirt Jumping is one of those things that favours a specific sub-set of bikes, but think about it - a downhill bike is built to solely go down a hill in the fastest possible way. Doesn't matter what technicality of trail it's on, that's its focus. Down a hill. It is at home on a blue trail / green trail / double black trail, as long as it doesn't have climbing. Take the Coetzenburg XCO course, for example. That is a solid blue, as it's got several unavoidable features that are over a certain height, yet not so large to warrant a black rating. It's hectically technical, yet on a small scale. Would you take a DH bike there? No - not really, as it's got a lot of pedalling on it and DH bikes aren't really suited to pedalling. As for the flow vs tech argument - that's not different styles of bike that they're catered towards, that's different technical elements within a trail. It's still a blue or black, regardless of the bike you ride it on. Yes, you may need to be more technically proficient to ride a double black course on a hardtail rigid, but that doesn't mean it automatically goes up a grade as soon as you switch bikes. Insofar as competitions go - that's when you see the bias towards different levels of technicality. XCM is not nearly as technically demanding as XCO, yet XCO often has features that would be seen on a DH course - black or double black. That doesn't mean the DH course's black rating is of a higher standard than the XCO course's black rating, and it shouldn't mean that either. Black is black, and it it true regardless of the discipline...
Danger Dassie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Sorry DD, except for the odd rocky section, that last all of 20m there are nothing at Avianto that is even remotely challenging. Thaba have one rock section of about 100m that could be classified as technical, but even that is only rated "blue". Now that the DH track has been killed , nothing at Thaba should be rated above blue.The climb to the Vulture route is challenging, and there are some tech sections at VG like Pof Adder, but it's more about riding over or through rocky sections than being comfortable with your bike riding at speed, and doing drop offs, gap jumps etc. Even PWC had to modify their drop offs after people complained that they are too dangerous. (1.25m ) PWC also killed off all their gap jumps...so much for the growth of tech trails in GP. The fact that you did not even mention Hakahana makes me wonder what you define as technical. Because honestly, that is the only trail we have that challenges you to improve your bike skills. It has a great variety of features that you can practice on and speed is a definate factor.But even Hakahana is not even remotely close to the old Jonkershoek trails. And from what I've seen of the new Jonkershoek trails, nothing will get close in the near future. Great trails are about flow, and speed and cool features that makes sense because it's in exactly the right place on that trail....it's not about single track on the climbs and Jeep tracks on the downhills...where did I see this...oh yes, at both Avianto and Van Gaalens I'm not sure if you're purposely trying to be snide and condescending in your post, or if I'm misreading the tone? I didn't mention Hakahana because I suggested the others in addition to Hakahana. To answer your question, yes I do ride at Hakahana and no I don't agree with your definition of it being the only tech trail. It absolutely is one of the top spots in terms of technically challenging rides and a physical challenge as well.If other stuff mentioned holds no challenge for you, then ride it faster. Yes theres a lot of room for improvement, yes It's ok to have a difference of opinion, personally I feel there are a number of trails that are constantly improving and following a good growth trajectory and build standards.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Really? ... Maybe go checkout the schools series events sometime.did you actually read my post? Schools series is fantastic, but the majority of our out of school riders have a hissy fit at the sight of a raised log. Gravel donkeys. Nothing wrong with the sufferfest, but it doesn't fuel skills progression. There are of course exceptions, but that's why I used words like "most" and "majority" The focus has always been on the long slog. Schools series will fuel our future stars, but we need to shy away from the pursuit of endless gravel miles at the expense of technical ability.
patches Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Some sections of the Spruit are double brown spiral. The most dangerous obstacles one can find on a trail.Sometimes these obstacles are unavoidable and plenty of caution needs to be taken. Even the most skilled rider has been caught off guard.I petition that we upgrade the signage to warn riders of such dangers.
Danger Dassie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I know this... but some people don't that was the point of my post. Thaba hosted a provincial XCO race a few years back UCI graded, the complaints from that race were unreal coming from "top racers" as the course was brutal! I am in 100% agreement with you, just not the OP and his trail bashing views on other peoples hard work and lack of actual grading principals. I remember that event, most of the top racers and those of us from an XCO background actually enjoyed it and Thaba got a good review overall, not just for a provincial venue but also for nationals and SA Champs. Think the real complaints came from people who; a) had a bit of a shock on the roughness of the course and the drop just behind the clubhouse. b) riders not used to the format of XCO and riding the older categories.Quite a few people from out of Gauteng were eating their words after the national event there. Sadly the dropping of Thaba as a race venue isn't so much to do with complaints over the route as so much over governing body and organiser politics. Imho ...
the nerd Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I remember that event, most of the top racers and those of us from an XCO background actually enjoyed it and Thaba got a good review overall, not just for a provincial venue but also for nationals and SA Champs. Think the real complaints came from people who; a) had a bit of a shock on the roughness of the course and the drop just behind the clubhouse. b) riders not used to the format of XCO and riding the older categories.Quite a few people from out of Gauteng were eating their words after the national event there. Sadly the dropping of Thaba as a race venue isn't so much to do with complaints over the route as so much over governing body and organiser politics. Imho ...That's why used "top racers" [emoji51]
Danger Dassie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 did you actually read my post? Schools series is fantastic, but the majority of our out of school riders have a hissy fit at the sight of a raised log. Gravel donkeys. Nothing wrong with the sufferfest, but it doesn't fuel skills progression. There are of course exceptions, but that's why I used words like "most" and "majority" The focus has always been on the long slog. Schools series will fuel our future stars, but we need to shy away from the pursuit of endless gravel miles at the expense of technical ability. I did, relax ... Was referring to the progess of future 'Burrys' Generally though I've noticed that marathon courses have become a lot (a lot in relative terms) more technical over the years.Erik Kleinhans and some others have also noted this after riding events in Europe for the last few months, reckons we're spoilt here as many of the XCM events there have super steep climbs and even some tarred sections. However the level of XCO/gravity style riding is a lot higher and more accessible. We have pretty much everything here that Europe does, but our development of the sport is different in terms of the riding disciplines. It's not like we aren't spoilt for choice.
Danger Dassie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 That's why used "top racers" [emoji51] I see what you did there
RocknRolla Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 <snip>The focus has always been on the long slog. Schools series will fuel our future stars, but we need to shy away from the pursuit of endless gravel miles at the expense of technical ability. This reminds me of the crusades....(maybe a bit harsh, but my point follows) Initially I was at the forefront for skills development, and the progression inside of our bike parks, I have however come to realise that not everyone wants to have Minnaaresque skills and flow, they're just happy to pedal their bikes with mates...you cant really have a conversation about the secretary's low cut blouse while hurtling single file down boulders, where a lose of concentration means a hospital visit. This is what most people derive, and want to derive from cycling in SA (my uneducated observation purely based on talking to people and seeing what's going on.) It's up to the individual to decide they positively want to upskill, and where and how they do it.Some people think "man that trail was insane.. i'm never going back, cuz I dont fancy carrying my bike."Others think, that was insane, I HAVE to go back and try again, till they master the section. Let those who ride decide.
RocknRolla Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 and it will help if the trails are IMBA graded for the purpose of uniformity.
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