New Zealand - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

[intern]

The weapons the killer had were illegal already under existing laws. So how well do laws prevent maniacs from doing what maniacs do, then? Also, guns are not particularly sophisticated pieces of equipment. You can make one with little more than a piece of steel pipe. You could also easily illegally modify perfectly legal weapons without any great measure of skill (this is more or less what Tarrant did with his legally-acquired weapons).

So, changing the gun laws delivers great feelz. But apply the thinks to it for a minute and you will see it for what it is: crowd-pleasing posturing.

Note, though, that I've never thought it a good idea for semi-automatic weapons to be available to anyone outside of the military. For deer hunting, for example, a 3-round mag is plenty. You're probably only going to take one shot, anyway, whether you're accurate or not!

[intern]

I also agree to a point, but it will take some time to kill 50 people with a swiss army knife, giving more time for intervention, fight or flight. I do agree that its vehicles that are pretty lethal weapons that are easily available.

We're an agricultural nation, too. Fertilizer is well known for its explosive properties, and indeed Tarrant said he considered this avenue of destruction. Look what Timothy McVeigh did in Oklahoma City in 1996. With fert, he killed 168 people in the blink of an eye and put 680 in hospital.

[patham]

The weapons the killer had were illegal already under existing laws. So how well do laws prevent maniacs from doing what maniacs do, then? Also, guns are not particularly sophisticated pieces of equipment. You can make one with little more than a piece of steel pipe. You could also easily illegally modify perfectly legal weapons without any great measure of skill (this is more or less what Tarrant did with his legally-acquired weapons).

So, changing the gun laws delivers great feelz. But apply the thinks to it for a minute and you will see it for what it is: crowd-pleasing posturing.

Note, though, that I've never thought it a good idea for semi-automatic weapons to be available to anyone outside of the military. For deer hunting, for example, a 3-round mag is plenty. You're probably only going to take one shot, anyway, whether you're accurate or not!

 

Will the bans make the world a safe place - No. Will they make it appreciably safer- probably not. But I think there is still some value to be gained in winnowing out some of the easier opportunities for the said maniacs to go large.Every little speed bump in their plans can be worked around, sure, but adds time and effort, and hopefully an opportunity for intelligence to intervene. And some mods just are not feasible, you cannot convert your grand-dads bolt-action 303 Lee-Enfield to automatic. And if someone spends all their time trawling illegalgunmods.com that might be a flag.....

 

And I would hope that minimising the semi-autos would help in the going postal scenarios, when Billy-bob gets upset after being fired, goes home to pick up his weapons and returns back to work.

 

I suppose its scenario planning. You can't cover mitigate all possible scenarios with one action, but maybe helping out 5% of scenarios is at least a step in the right direction. Still better than the NRA patented "hopes and prayers" approach. 

[patham]

We're an agricultural nation, too. Fertilizer is well known for its explosive properties, and indeed Tarrant said he considered this avenue of destruction. Look what Timothy McVeigh did in Oklahoma City in 1996. With fert, he killed 168 people in the blink of an eye and put 680 in hospital.

 Smile and wave to the NSA everyone, we've now been flagged. 

 

I think the US have regulated ammonium nitrate sales quite a bit, and target farm supply shops as an intelligence information source after that event. Again, you could probably buy one bag a week and just repeat for a year or two to remain under the radar, but that would weed out the hotheads who want to do stuff now.

[davetapson]

The question I ask myself when I see knee jerk response by those who think they are in charge, is 'would this legislation have any material effect on stopping the event that triggered it?'

 

I'm against knee-jerk responses, particularly by politicians who in my eye's are loathesome beasts, but the simple answer in this case would most likely be 'yes'.

 

The logistics of making an ammonium nitrate bomb are way more (and way more tedious) than picking up your fettled AR15 being blown to pieces is way less cinematic than going out in a one-sided gunfight. 

[intern]

Will the bans make the world a safe place - No. Will they make it appreciably safer- probably not. But I think there is still some value to be gained in winnowing out some of the easier opportunities for the said maniacs to go large.Every little speed bump in their plans can be worked around, sure, but adds time and effort, and hopefully an opportunity for intelligence to intervene. And some mods just are not feasible, you cannot convert your grand-dads bolt-action 303 Lee-Enfield to automatic. And if someone spends all their time trawling illegalgunmods.com that might be a flag.....

 

And I would hope that minimising the semi-autos would help in the going postal scenarios, when Billy-bob gets upset after being fired, goes home to pick up his weapons and returns back to work.

 

I suppose its scenario planning. You can't cover mitigate all possible scenarios with one action, but maybe helping out 5% of scenarios is at least a step in the right direction. Still better than the NRA patented "hopes and prayers" approach. 

That's good and fair comment. It also brings us to Aramoana where David Gray nailed 13 people (1990). After that, (from wikipedia) 'sweeping changes were made to New Zealand's firearms legislation in 1992, including 10 year photographic licences and tight restrictions on military style semi-automatic firearms'.

And of course there was Martin Bryant down in Tasmania, also; he used the dreaded AR15, sure, and a FAL....and both incidences were as rare as rocking horse poop, more owing to a homicidal maniac than the availability of weapons of mass destruction. I do agree that had these clowns had lesser weapons available, perhaps the death they dealt would be reduced...but still think knee-jerks are not a good idea.

Boy do I sound like a fence sitter or what.

[patham]

That's good and fair comment. It also brings us to Aramoana where David Gray nailed 13 people (1990). After that, (from wikipedia) 'sweeping changes were made to New Zealand's firearms legislation in 1992, including 10 year photographic licences and tight restrictions on military style semi-automatic firearms'.

And of course there was Martin Bryant down in Tasmania, also; he used the dreaded AR15, sure, and a FAL....and both incidences were as rare as rocking horse poop, more owing to a homicidal maniac than the availability of weapons of mass destruction. I do agree that had these clowns had lesser weapons available, perhaps the death they dealt would be reduced...but still think knee-jerks are not a good idea.

Boy do I sound like a fence sitter or what.

 

I did a bit of navel gazing on this exact same thought over the weekend and came to the conclusion that as I have gotten older I tend to see more shades of grey rather than absolutes. That's probably a good thing in society I think, those who can only see black and white are probably less inclined to politely debate matters and more inclined to escalate when their point of view is not heard when they meet their polar opposite.  

[intern]

I did a bit of navel gazing on this exact same thought over the weekend and came to the conclusion that as I have gotten older I tend to see more shades of grey rather than absolutes. That's probably a good thing in society I think, those who can only see black and white are probably less inclined to politely debate matters and more inclined to escalate when their point of view is not heard when they meet their polar opposite.  

The world operates in the grey spaces...

[intern]

And also, people like Brenton Tarrant don't understand grey spaces at all...

[davetapson]

Problem is, you always going to have nutters, who will express themselves the way nutters do, or as they say, 'nutters going to nut no matter what'.  Or something.

 

I think the one problem the Americans have is that there are just so many of them - when you have a population of 350 000 000, the number of nutters is not going to be insignificant, and being first world, have access to more than a bag of snakes or whatever 'shitholers', sorry, third-worlders have to come up with.

[Chris_]

My olds really seem to be attracting all the good stuff on their trip to your fair country...

 

They were in the South of NZ - Franz Josef, where catastrophic rain has put a swift end to their glacier hike and heli trip... (not to mention the areas roads and bridges...)

 

Luckily they were on the right side of said bridges so could head back to Christchurch a few days early. We had to laugh, its been a memorable trip if nothing else!

[intern]

Problem is, you always going to have nutters, who will express themselves the way nutters do, or as they say, 'nutters going to nut no matter what'.  Or something.

 

I think the one problem the Americans have is that there are just so many of them - when you have a population of 350 000 000, the number of nutters is not going to be insignificant, and being first world, have access to more than a bag of snakes or whatever 'shitholers', sorry, third-worlders have to come up with.

'access to a bag of snakes' aaaahahahahahahahahaaaaa

[intern]

My olds really seem to be attracting all the good stuff on their trip to your fair country...

 

They were in the South of NZ - Franz Josef, where catastrophic rain has put a swift end to their glacier hike and heli trip... (not to mention the areas roads and bridges...)

 

Luckily they were on the right side of said bridges so could head back to Christchurch a few days early. We had to laugh, its been a memorable trip if nothing else!

Sounds like they are getting their money's worth all right! 

[Chris_]

Sounds like they are getting their money's worth all right! 

 

They've loved every second.

 

Just gushing about how friendly, helpful, and awesome the people seem to be that they've come across.

[davetapson]

Residence application in.  Agent says that it's taking up to three months for a case officer to be assigned at the moment... 

Edited April 2, 2019 by davetapson

[Kranswurm]

Airbnb my cousin stayed in last night near Hokonui....wherever that might be