Froome vs Everybody Else

[Patchelicious]

WHAT? You work for SKY? 

 

Just kidding, remain calm. 

 

My stance is simple.

I don't believe in miracles. You don't go from donkey to race horse in 3 weeks (between Tour of Poland and Vuelta).  

Clean riders are not faster or beating known dopers. 

 

Until then, enjoy the racing. 

Yeah yeah, I'm the bus mechanic.

 

Thanks for clearing it up.

So can I ask: What do you constitute as a miracle? Do you have a specific example.

 

Surely a clean rider can beat a doper? We dont all have the same baseline...?

 

Eg: Lets say Rider 1 has a FTP of 5.2W/Kg clean and Rider B has a FTP of 5.5W/Kg clean. so rider A dopes and gets his FTP up to 5.4W/Kg, Rider B can still beat him.

 

(disclaimer, these are just hypothetical numbers to interogate a theory, not to be used literally ).

[Patchelicious]

Patch, I think you are trying to push water uphill with a rake. Some opinions are immovable. Until there are facts, they remain just opinions.

I believe there are non-dopers of which until proven otherwise, Froome is one.. Maybe I am just naïve but I like it that way.

Yeah, but when people start posting opinions as fact, they need to back it up

[jcza]

Yeah yeah, I'm the bus mechanic.

 

Thanks for clearing it up.

So can I ask: What do you constitute as a miracle? Do you have a specific example.

 

Surely a clean rider can beat a doper? We dont all have the same baseline...?

 

Eg: Lets say Rider 1 has a FTP of 5.2W/Kg clean and Rider B has a FTP of 5.5W/Kg clean. so rider A dopes and gets his FTP up to 5.4W/Kg, Rider B can still beat him.

 

(disclaimer, these are just hypothetical numbers to interogate a theory, not to be used literally ).

 

Don't you think Froome going from domestique to grand tour winner is a miracle? A guy that showed no previous promise and was weeks away from having his contract terminated to nearly winning the Vuelta? (should have won had Sky not cocked it up and handed Cobo victory). 

 

Clean riders can beat dopers but I honestly don't believe that clean riders are beating known dopers at World Tour level.  

[Boobear]

Clean riders your'll have jokes not even the locals are clean in s.a. The tests are always 10 years behind. Take all there samples and keep them for 10 years and if they come out clean then we can say they raced clean and it's not only in cycling, it's across the board of sports as every guy wants to beat the next guy to win the big prize and get the most money

[Duane_Bosch]

Yeah, but when people start posting opinions as fact, they need to back it up

But this is a forum. Everything on here is opinion.

 

There's an Afrikaans saying to explain the focus on Froome. Die hoogste boome vang die meeste wind.

[Patchelicious]

Don't you think Froome going from domestique to grand tour winner is a miracle? A guy that showed no previous promise and was weeks away from having his contract terminated to nearly winning the Vuelta? (should have won had Sky not cocked it up and handed Cobo victory).

 

Clean riders can beat dopers but I honestly don't believe that clean riders are beating known dopers at World Tour level.

Awesome, a point that can be discussed ????????The first person to post their reasoning here in 150 posts, finally

 

The domestique to GC winner is often a arguement that is used when discussing Froome. Do I think it's a miracle? I'm not sure, do I think it's remarkable? Sure! But I think to make the most of it, we need to understand what transpired between the two events and how much time passed etc.

 

I was listening to a podcast the other day, and the guys were chatting on this topic, and their reasoning was the diagnosis of his condition during this time, and also his weight loss could be attributed to the performance gains?

 

On the topic of WT cleanses beating away dopers, who are the known dopers that you refer too?

[jcza]

Awesome, a point that can be discussed The first person to post their reasoning here in 150 posts, finally

 

The domestique to GC winner is often a arguement that is used when discussing Froome. Do I think it's a miracle? I'm not sure, do I think it's remarkable? Sure! But I think to make the most of it, we need to understand what transpired between the two events and how much time passed etc.

 

I was listening to a podcast the other day, and the guys were chatting on this topic, and their reasoning was the diagnosis of his condition during this time, and also his weight loss could be attributed to the performance gains?

 

On the topic of WT cleanses beating away dopers, who are the known dopers that you refer too?

 

There was about 3 weeks between the Tour of Poland and the Vuelta. Not sure how much weight one can lose in 3 weeks unless your name is Fabio Aru and you have dysentry and you lose 5 kgs in a week. 

 

Known dopers will be those that previously tested positive and served bans. 

[raptor-22]

WHAT? You work for SKY? 

 

Just kidding, remain calm. 

 

My stance is simple.

I don't believe in miracles. You don't go from donkey to race horse in 3 weeks (between Tour of Poland and Vuelta).  

Clean riders are not faster or beating known dopers. 

 

Until then, enjoy the racing.

 

 

How do you know clean riders can't beat known dopers? Please direct me to your thesis

[raptor-22]

Don't you think Froome going from domestique to grand tour winner is a miracle? A guy that showed no previous promise and was weeks away from having his contract terminated to nearly winning the Vuelta? (should have won had Sky not cocked it up and handed Cobo victory). 

 

Clean riders can beat dopers but I honestly don't believe that clean riders are beating known dopers at World Tour level.

 

 

Ah the usual story of zero to hero equals doper. Been discussed to death by armchair experts all over the inter webs. Can you show any evidence that the ability was not present despite under performance? Can you show me the human physiology profiles progression that shows Froome's rise to competitiveness to be implausible?

 

Then we have the constructs for a debate . Without it its just an argument over who believes what

[HappyMartin]

I see a Voganov of Katusha has tested positive.

 

If clean riders can't won't then can we say dopers can't lose? Voganov was just a domestique. Hardly a GC contender. Doping doesn't seem to always turn a donkey into a race horse either.

[mazambaan]

Well Froome / Sky could certainly give some SA cyclists lessons on how to get a retrospective TUE.  BS (unfortunate initials those) comes to mind?

 

I have read that the requirement for inhalers to combat "exercise induced asthma" is significantly higher amongst pro athletes where breathing is important than the general population. But then again, the athletes do pump a lot more air.

[Iceman.]

Chris Froome is a talented rider. He's rise to fame as a top athlete has a lot to do by riding for a top tier team and by getting all the cutting edge technological, scientific and nutritional info, data and training methodologies from such a team.

 

Team Sky seems to have a huge budget and in reality that makes a massive difference / gives a massive advantage to a rider like Chris when compared to other talented riders in smaller budget teams.

 

So the big Team that he rides for is instrumental in his success, just like other top athletes that play for a top team.

 

We don't know if Chris Froome dopes. He says that he rides clean. He's also been a good ambassador for the sport. Whether that's genuine or a marketing gimmick to deflect doping attention is another issue.

 

But the bottom line is that we have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he rides clean in the absence of any (concrete) proof that he dopes.

 

Personally I'm torn about his performances and somewhat suspicious, especially after the whole and dare I say it Lance Armstrong saga, which we all tired of hearing, but it has made us suspicious and cynical.

 

Let's see how the next few years unfold.

[Eldron]

I've probably asked this about a million times but.....why do we care?

 

There is diddly squat we can do about euro pros doping. We will never know "the facts" - even of those that have been bust.

 

So "they're all dirty" who cares? Why care about something you'll never have enough facts on to have an informed opinion on?

 

I watch the TdF and love it. When someone gets done I remove them from my "they're cool" list. No biggie. No fanfare. Just me enjoying cycling. Dirty/clean - whatever. If/when they get bust then oh well.

 

Do I think that clean cyclists can beat dirty cyclist? I don't care :-)

[Breezer]

Dink net hoe gaan hubbers hom haat as hy met n specialized begin ry!

[goya-goya]

I have on good authority that Chris is 100% clean.

 

I think the isolation of the discussion based on results is juvenile. If any of you guys have an understanding of the differences in the way each team rides and protects the lead riders, as well as nutrition differences-to name a few- then I think you would show more clarity in your comments.please feel free to share.

 

I know there are some really smart people in this group who understand training strategies... Have you considered these differences? Not to mention the doping control budget and strategy.

 

I am as disappointed as next when someone found to have been doping. But what you guys are doing is not trusting your spouses because they do not share all their whereabouts??? And they have not done anything wrong.

 

You can't always be right... So trust the system.. Or change the system.

 

In fact these discussions are what we normally use to mis-direct people from the actual issue.

[jcza]

Ah the usual story of zero to hero equals doper. Been discussed to death by armchair experts all over the inter webs. Can you show any evidence that the ability was not present despite under performance? Can you show me the human physiology profiles progression that shows Froome's rise to competitiveness to be implausible?

 

Then we have the constructs for a debate . Without it its just an argument over who believes what

 

Of course the ability was present, we saw proof of that. He was just over-weight and sitting at 17% body fat. Took more than 5 years to work that out. Marginal gains innit?