PPA HillClimb Seeding - Discussion :)

[Stricker]

I see a lot of ppl taking on Hill climb and saying its a bad thing..

 

 

So lets have a discussion regarding this.

 

 

-Riding in A-

Did this guy just decide 1 day to do hill climb ,done it in 10min and now he is in A? Or was he actually riding before that and strong enough to sit with A but only have 5 races a year to move from Z to A?

 

-Crashes  Caused by Hill Climb Riders-

Alberto Contador was taken out around a corner this year in Vualta... Must have been a Hill Climb that got that guy in Pro seeding? or all the 100s of crashes around the world in pro ranks , must be all the hill climb seeding events all over the world ?

 

"But if he went through the soup letter he would have had enough experience"?

Perfect Example: My son is 5,daughter is 8 , took my son at that age 30min without training wheels to learn how to ride a bike, daughter at her age , probable 5 days of crashing Ect Ect ....  So based on your theory, my daughter because she took so long is good enough to ride "A" and Son should be in G cause only 30min?  

My mother been driving (Car) for 30 years me only 10.. does that make her a better driver? Cause I can guarantee I'm a way better driver.??

 

 

So please, if you have a valid reason why you think a hill climb event should not be used as a seeding , do share so that I can try to understand how this is a problem,

 

Take note - As far as the actual BETA for the HC is concerned ... that is another story

 

YES ITS NOT FRIDAY ......... maar dit is klein fryday  

[Skubarra]

This is going to be interesting...

 

Stricker you just trolling or can you seriously not foresee the potential problems when someone with no bunch riding experience gets to ride in A bunch?

 

And yes someone can ride a lot and be a strong rider without ever have ridden in a bunch

[Karman de Lange]

I'm way to heavy to even think I can improve seeding on hill climbs (90kg and heavy bike) .. I can pull the bunch for most of the day though ..... until we hit a hill of course

 

So it really for small % of lightweight weight weenies so bit unfair.

[Pure Savage]

I see a lot of ppl taking on Hill climb and saying its a bad thing..

 

 

So lets have a discussion regarding this.

 

 

-Riding in A-

Did this guy just decide 1 day to do hill climb ,done it in 10min and now he is in A? Or was he actually riding before that and strong enough to sit with A but only have 5 races a year to move from Z to A?

 

-Crashes  Caused by Hill Climb Riders-

Alberto Contador was taken out around a corner this year in Vualta... Must have been a Hill Climb that got that guy in Pro seeding? or all the 100s of crashes around the world in pro ranks , must be all the hill climb seeding events all over the world ?

 

"But if I went through the soup letter he would have had enough experience"?

Perfect Example: My son is 5,daughter is 8 , took my son at that age 30min without training wheels to learn how to ride a bike, daughter at her age , probable 5 days of crashing Ect Ect ....  So based on your theory, my daughter because she took so long is good enough to ride "A" and Son should be in G cause only 30min?  

My mother been driving (Car) for 30 years me only 10.. does that make her a better driver? Cause I can guarantee I'm a way better driver.??

 

 

So please, if you have a valid reason why you think a hill climb event should not be used as a seeding , do share so that I can try to understand how this is a problem,

 

Take note - As far as the actual BETA for the HC is concerned ... that is another story

 

YES ITS NOT FRIDAY ......... maar dit is klein fryday  

I think the beta was the biggest issue last year, the first two hill climbs, riders jumped from I-J to A. This year the beta seems better and I did not see any massive jumps in seeding. 

 

If fitness was the only thing that mattered, your argument would be fine. However, as stated in other threads there are many other skills required. Dont think it should be too much of an issue any more as those people that got a massive jump last year and got dropped every race would have their seedings corrected for this year.

[Stricker]

This is going to be interesting...

 

Stricker you just trolling or can you seriously not foresee the potential problems when someone with no bunch riding experience gets to ride in A bunch?

 

And yes someone can ride a lot and be a strong rider without ever have ridden in a bunch

bit of both  

 

So what you are telling me is that..

Somewhere there is a guy that spends 9 hours a week, solo and on IDT, never does any group rides , does a hillclimb in 10min , get a A seeding race in a PPA race in A and actually sit between other riders and not at the back a bunch ? Not getting dropped because he has no clue how to draft? So basically man alone stronger then bunch?

 

Then come Thursdays... decide to ride with snakes in killarney and nothing is said about that? No seeding checked ...nothing ?

 

Yes I am trolling a little so please don't take it to serious  but some valid points will however be made

[Stricker]

I think the beta was the biggest issue last year, the first two hill climbs, riders jumped from I-J to A. This year the beta seems better and I did not see any massive jumps in seeding. 

 

If fitness was the only thing that mattered, your argument would be fine. However, as stated in other threads there are many other skills required. Dont think it should be too much of an issue any more as those people that got a massive jump last year and got dropped every race would have their seedings corrected for this year.

I personally know of a few guys that couldn't break into the A group because of the seeding until the hill climb , even though they were stronger and probable just as much bike handling skills/experience as current riders in A.

 

Quick question to you Savage, when I tell you I would like to do a SUB 3 Argus..what is the first question you ask me?

WHAT IS MY STARTING TIME/NUMBER ? am I correct

 

You know as well as I do your pace during any race is mostly determined by group you riding in/with, so I can actually turn around and tell you that before the hill climb was introduced , the system was unfair, as B-C riders had very little chance of actually getting into A. 

[Winstonian1984]

bit of both  

 

So what you are telling me is that..

Somewhere there is a guy that spends 9 hours a week, solo and on IDT, never does any group rides , does a hillclimb in 10min , get a A seeding race in a PPA race in A and actually sit between other riders and not at the back a bunch ? Not getting dropped because he has no clue how to draft? So basically man alone stronger then bunch?

 

Then come Thursdays... decide to ride with snakes in killarney and nothing is said about that? No seeding checked ...nothing ?

 

Yes I am trolling a little so please don't take it to serious  but some valid points will however be made

 

For one, the hill climb counted 100% to the PPA seedings last year. Before funrides that met the elevation and climbing criteria only counted 33%. Seeding events i.e one tonner, SCT, 99er are supposed to count 100%.

 

So in essence the hill climb should get the 15% penalty as it doesnt meet the ascent and distance criteria

[Stricker]

For one, the hill climb counted 100% to the PPA seedings last year. Before funrides that met the elevation and climbing criteria only counted 33%. Seeding events i.e one tonner, SCT, 99er are supposed to count 100%.

 

So in essence the hill climb should get the 15% penalty as it doesnt meet the ascent and distance criteria

As far as the BETA is concerned, yes I agree there are some flaws. should have maybe used it in conjunction with last race , maybe only 50% towards seeding or even 40%, But as stated above..that is for another topic. 

[Skubarra]

bit of both  

 

So what you are telling me is that..

Somewhere there is a guy that spends 9 hours a week, solo and on IDT, never does any group rides , does a hillclimb in 10min , get a A seeding race in a PPA race in A and actually sit between other riders and not at the back a bunch ? Not getting dropped because he has no clue how to draft? So basically man alone stronger then bunch?

 

Then come Thursdays... decide to ride with snakes in killarney and nothing is said about that? No seeding checked ...nothing ?

 

Yes I am trolling a little so please don't take it to serious  but some valid points will however be made

 

 

Just out of interest, how many races have you done other than Killarney? How often have you seen the dumb&dangerous things people can do in a bunch? 

 

And the problem here is not just that the oke that is strong but haven't had the seeding chances, but like others said, when hill climbs seed people above their actual ability and let them jump 10 groups.

 

To say that people in B & C have little chance of getting into A or get the chance to ride a Sub-3 Argus is nonsense to be blunt.

[Pure Savage]

I personally know of a few guys that couldn't break into the A group because of the seeding until the hill climb , even though they were stronger and probable just as much bike handling skills/experience as current riders in A.

 

Quick question to you Savage, when I tell you I would like to do a SUB 3 Argus..what is the first question you ask me?

WHAT IS MY STARTING TIME/NUMBER ? am I correct

 

You know as well as I do your pace during any race is mostly determined by group you riding in/with, so I can actually turn around and tell you that before the hill climb was introduced , the system was unfair, as B-C riders had very little chance of actually getting into A. 

 

Not really, once you got into the B-E range you got to start with the elites for the 99er and Burger. So there was that chance to stay with the bunch and improve. 

 

There is no real substitute for racing to get at the technical stuff. I have seen plenty of accidents at Killarney due to people's bunch riding skills coming short and ploughing into one another. 

[Stricker]

Just out of interest, how many races have you done other than Killarney? How often have you seen the dumb&dangerous things people can do in a bunch? 

 

And the problem here is not just that the oke that is strong but haven't had the seeding chances, but like others said, when hill climbs seed people above their actual ability and let them jump 10 groups.

 

To say that people in B & C have little chance of getting into A or get the chance to ride a Sub-3 Argus is nonsense to be blunt.

Dumb and Dangerous thing in a bunch have nothing to do with PPA Hill Climb event, but is more a rush of blood  etc etc ,, happen in pro ranks all the time ( lets keep this about PPA Hill climb being used to improve seeding 

 

As stated above the BETA for seeding is a problem, yes I agree 

 

OK .. you missed the point I was trying to make, what I was saying is that you are only as fast as the group you ride in, so going from C to B and then to A was a very long and some with actually say unfair , as you would have guys in A, that lost form but could suck wheel staying there .But guys in B that was pulling the group couldn't make it as they could never match the pace of A thus never getting the beta to move up. Thus being stuck in B

[Winstonian1984]

Dumb and Dangerous thing in a bunch have nothing to do with PPA Hill Climb event, but is more a rush of blood  etc etc ,, happen in pro ranks all the time ( lets keep this about PPA Hill climb being used to improve seeding 

 

As stated above the BETA for seeding is a problem, yes I agree 

 

OK .. you missed the point I was trying to make, what I was saying is that you are only as fast as the group you ride in, so going from C to B and then to A was a very long and some with actually say unfair , as you would have guys in A, that lost form but could suck wheel staying there .But guys in B that was pulling the group couldn't make it as they could never match the pace of A thus never getting the beta to move up. Thus being stuck in B

 

If everyone in the group decided to work together and not leave it down to a select few then im pretty sure they can get r. Like at the 2014 West Coast Express. B group times were as fast as A. Too many wheelsuckers in funrides who then have a little sprint finish to top their start group.

 

Hell PPA seeding is just a system to for funrides....dont take it too seriously 

['Dale]

Can't compare the Western Cape amateur roadie scene (a few hours of bunch rides at a time) with the WorldTour PROs who races at far high speeds over a variety of terrains and often for 4000 kms at a time, all vying for particular interests as teams.

 

That aside... ????

[Stricker]

Not really, once you got into the B-E range you got to start with the elites for the 99er and Burger. So there was that chance to stay with the bunch and improve. 

 

There is no real substitute for racing to get at the technical stuff. I have seen plenty of accidents at Killarney due to people's bunch riding skills coming short and ploughing into one another. 

Come I ask you this.

 

Is racing in PPA C the same as racing in PPA A?

Or even B vs A?

[Skubarra]

 

OK .. you missed the point I was trying to make, what I was saying is that you are only as fast as the group you ride in, so going from C to B and then to A was a very long and some with actually say unfair , as you would have guys in A, that lost form but could suck wheel staying there .But guys in B that was pulling the group couldn't make it as they could never match the pace of A thus never getting the beta to move up. Thus being stuck in B

 

By finishing at the front of B or C your seeding will improve by enough to get you into A. And as Savage said - in big races they combine groups so you will be seeded with A riders which give you the opportunity to improve your seeding

 

Dumb and Dangerous thing in a bunch have nothing to do with PPA Hill Climb event, but is more a rush of blood  etc etc ,, happen in pro ranks all the time ( lets keep this about PPA Hill climb being used to improve seeding 

 

Again I ask, how often have you ridden in groups? The more you ride in a group the better you get at not causing accidents and also at anticipating what people around you are doing & going to do - there is  more to group riding than just being strong enough to keep up. Call me selfish but when I'm going 60km/h+ on a dangerous downhill I prefer to be in close proximity of people who have done it in groups before.

[Pure Savage]

If everyone in the group decided to work together and not leave it down to a select few then im pretty much sure they can get closer. Like at the 2014 West Coast Express. B group times were as fast as A. Too many wheelsuckers in funrides who then have a little sprint finish to top their start group.

 

Hell PPA seeding is just a system to for funrides....dont take it too seriously 

 

To be fair, a certain group from E also beat a lot A that day