Whats the best value for money race drink to have in your pack ?

['Dale]

Cadence CarboFuel

After lots of hit-and-misses during experimentation, my fuel tank benefits best from Cadence Carb Fuel

 

Pricing is superb.

[V12man]

FAKE SCIENCE!

 

It's disgusting.

Someone ping Jeroen... The doctor.....

 

The science is not fake - open to misinterpretation/ misunderstanding by some - but the science is pretty sound - and has not changed fundamentally in 25 years - usually.a.good test of sound science is time...

 

Edit- I see someone did ping him... should read the whole thread before commenting.

[Tony Paulo]

32GI low GI works for me....I mix that rehydrate. Both blueberry flavour

 

 

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[Halfmoon]

"Whasp" works like a bomb

www.whasp.co.za

[johannrissik]

OK, so how does the fat-adapted athlete operate? 

 

We have people saying fat is fuel and others saying carbs are fuel, what am I misunderstanding ?

['Dale]

OK, so how does the fat-adapted athlete operate?

 

We have people saying fat is fuel and others saying carbs are fuel, what am I misunderstanding ?

Fat for fuel = ????

Carbs for fuel = ????

[Patchelicious]

OK, so how does the fat-adapted athlete operate?

 

We have people saying fat is fuel and others saying carbs are fuel, what am I misunderstanding ?

Both are fuels.

 

One is just more easily accessible during intense exercise.

[Patchelicious]

How did this now become a Cadence marketing exercise? Just answer the OP question and take the science debate somewhere else.

 

#justsaying

It hasn't, and the science behind it all is a large part of the topic.

 

4 very good products have been recommended.

[johannrissik]

Thanks Dale & Patch.

 

If that's the case, what's the carb : fat ratio in the "energy drinks" ?

[NotSoBigBen]

I train and 'live' on fat/protein but I 'race' on carbs ... Deurmekaar I tell you ????

 

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[The Doctor]

Both are fuels.

 

One is just more easily accessible during intense exercise.

 

The carb / fat question is a very interesting one for which we don't have enough answers yet.

 

We are doing quite a bit of research in this domain at the moment and recently published a paper on this. Link here:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26918583

 

Here is what we know at the moment:

 

During exercise the primary fuel source is carbohydrate. Peak carbohydrate oxidation rates are  as high as 8g/min at very high intensities in elite athletes.

 

We used to think that peak fat oxidation rates were always below 1g/min as nobody had ever reported higher than this in any study. Most elite athletes have peak fat oxidation rates of about 0.6g/min

 

When people started banting and also exercising new data emerged that showed that on a LCHF diet, peak fat oxidation rates could reach as high 1.8g/min in a small number of athletes. That is more than twice what we previously thought was possible.

 

This is still quite a few orders of magnitude lower than CHO oxidation rates though.

 

However, that changes our paradigm to some extent with respect to fuelling for endurance sports.

 

A fat oxidation rate of >1.5g/min can sustain an intensity equivalent to approximately 65% of VO2max power. Which is a fairly easonable pace.

 

It is therefore possible to fuel without any carbs for an ultra-endurance event when the pace is not excessively high and is kept constant. A good example would be an age grouper or competitive Ironman athlete on a relatively flat course profile.

 

Things get a little more complicated when you start looking at sports in which the pace varies significantly e.g. road or MTB 

 

Habitual LCHF athletes have down regulated CHO absorption rates and also have lower oxidative and glycolytic capacity for CHO. As such, the carbs that they do have stored are not as accessible as they would be in a mixed diet athlete. In addition, they cannot absorb CHO at the same rate as a mixed diet athlete.

 

The study posted above showed that they also do not convert fats or proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis) at a faster rate than mixed diet athletes. So they are somewhat dependent on fat as a source of energy (or so it seems from our data to date).

 

The upside is that fat is a virtually limitless energy supply and you will therefore never bonk as a LCHF athlete. Many LCHF athletes are completing events like the Ironman on fluids alone. No exogenous fuel!

 

Whether the LCHF diet is a good diet for overall health in the long term is still unclear. So the above points relate solely to performance.

 

The downside is that LCHF can result in greater fatigue in the first few months and may also suppress the immune response. We have unpublished data from ironman athletes that demonstrates higher rates of infections for LCHF athletes than their traditional counterparts. Monitoring fatigue is therefore very important when following a LCHF diet. Adaptation to LCHF as an athlete also takes a few months. It's not something you can switch to overnight.

 

A new strategy that has emerged in recent years is one which attempts to gain some benefit from both fats and CHO. This is know as periodised nutrition.

 

It involves 2-3 fasted exercise sessions each week to stimulate fat oxidation rates. The other 2-3 sessions are down with maximal CHO feeding rates (60-90g/hr) to stimulate the up-regulation of CHO transporters in the gut (training the gut) and to maintain CHO oxidation capacity and glycolysis in the muscle. It also results in a leaner athlete.

 

In races (particularly ultra-distance) the athlete will sometimes fuel with a mix of carbs and fats in the first few hours and then switch to CHO in the last 2 hours. Typical is a Tour De France mountain stage in which the first few climbs are ridden at a lower intensity and then the attacks start to happen on the last climb.

 

With this strategy we can get athletes to achieve fat oxidation rates that are higher than traditional mixed diet athletes but they are still below 1g/min. However, it creates a larger fuel tank while maintaining the ability to perform very high intensity exercise.

 

We are busy writing up data on a LCHF ultra athlete that was tested in LCHF state and again in when using periodised nutrition. The periodised nutrition improved 20km TT power but did not improve 100km TT. So this does confirm our hypothesis to some extent. We will be publishing this data soon.

 

I hope that gives some clarification. We still need to do answer a lot of questions but the science is definitely being conducted and will be published in the coming years.

[The Doctor]

I train and 'live' on fat/protein but I 'race' on carbs ... Deurmekaar I tell you

 

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That's probably the worst strategy. See above post.

 

Add 2 training sessions each week with carbs and the rest fasted. You will notice a big improvement in races.

['Dale]

What a cool thing to have The Doctor supply this forum with his insights.

????????

[Malpiet]

50/50 apple juice and water

 

High5 tab in the other bottle

[johannrissik]

The carb / fat question is a very interesting one for which we don't have enough answers yet.

 

We are doing quite a bit of research in this domain at the moment and recently published a paper on this. Link here:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26918583

 

Here is what we know at the moment:

 

During exercise the primary fuel source is carbohydrate. Peak carbohydrate oxidation rates are  as high as 8g/min at very high intensities in elite athletes.

 

We used to think that peak fat oxidation rates were always below 1g/min as nobody had ever reported higher than this in any study. Most elite athletes have peak fat oxidation rates of about 0.6g/min

 

When people started banting and also exercising new data emerged that showed that on a LCHF diet, peak fat oxidation rates could reach as high 1.8g/min in a small number of athletes. That is more than twice what we previously thought was possible.

 

This is still quite a few orders of magnitude lower than CHO oxidation rates though.

 

However, that changes our paradigm to some extent with respect to fuelling for endurance sports.

 

A fat oxidation rate of >1.5g/min can sustain an intensity equivalent to approximately 65% of VO2max power. Which is a fairly easonable pace.

 

It is therefore possible to fuel without any carbs for an ultra-endurance event when the pace is not excessively high and is kept constant. A good example would be an age grouper or competitive Ironman athlete on a relatively flat course profile.

 

Things get a little more complicated when you start looking at sports in which the pace varies significantly e.g. road or MTB 

 

Habitual LCHF athletes have down regulated CHO absorption rates and also have lower oxidative and glycolytic capacity for CHO. As such, the carbs that they do have stored are not as accessible as they would be in a mixed diet athlete. In addition, they cannot absorb CHO at the same rate as a mixed diet athlete.

 

The study posted above showed that they also do not convert fats or proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis) at a faster rate than mixed diet athletes. So they are somewhat dependent on fat as a source of energy (or so it seems from our data to date).

 

The upside is that fat is a virtually limitless energy supply and you will therefore never bonk as a LCHF athlete. Many LCHF athletes are completing events like the Ironman on fluids alone. No exogenous fuel!

 

Whether the LCHF diet is a good diet for overall health in the long term is still unclear. So the above points relate solely to performance.

 

The downside is that LCHF can result in greater fatigue in the first few months and may also suppress the immune response. We have unpublished data from ironman athletes that demonstrates higher rates of infections for LCHF athletes than their traditional counterparts. Monitoring fatigue is therefore very important when following a LCHF diet. Adaptation to LCHF as an athlete also takes a few months. It's not something you can switch to overnight.

 

A new strategy that has emerged in recent years is one which attempts to gain some benefit from both fats and CHO. This is know as periodised nutrition.

 

It involves 2-3 fasted exercise sessions each week to stimulate fat oxidation rates. The other 2-3 sessions are down with maximal CHO feeding rates (60-90g/hr) to stimulate the up-regulation of CHO transporters in the gut (training the gut) and to maintain CHO oxidation capacity and glycolysis in the muscle. It also results in a leaner athlete.

 

In races (particularly ultra-distance) the athlete will sometimes fuel with a mix of carbs and fats in the first few hours and then switch to CHO in the last 2 hours. Typical is a Tour De France mountain stage in which the first few climbs are ridden at a lower intensity and then the attacks start to happen on the last climb.

 

With this strategy we can get athletes to achieve fat oxidation rates that are higher than traditional mixed diet athletes but they are still below 1g/min. However, it creates a larger fuel tank while maintaining the ability to perform very high intensity exercise.

 

We are busy writing up data on a LCHF ultra athlete that was tested in LCHF state and again in when using periodised nutrition. The periodised nutrition improved 20km TT power but did not improve 100km TT. So this does confirm our hypothesis to some extent. We will be publishing this data soon.

 

I hope that gives some clarification. We still need to do answer a lot of questions but the science is definitely being conducted and will be published in the coming years.

Thank you very much for that.  

[NotSoBigBen]

That's probably the worst strategy. See above post.

 

Add 2 training sessions each week with carbs and the rest fasted. You will notice a big improvement in races.

I accept that if one's focus is on going faster, for me controlling my weight is the most important thing. After 56yrs I know this strategy works for ME ????

 

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