Pure Savage Posted March 30, 2017 Share What about doing the time for your crime? In a modern democratic society why release any criminal from incarceration ever? It would be outrageous to think that this is how society operates and I really think it is no different for cyclists. If the penalty is 6 months, 2 years or 4 years, why should they not be allowed to compete once the time is done? Is that not how civilised society behaves? Rehabilitation being a major advance in mankind from medieval justice? What is hypocritical is the Epic with their own pseudo rules that are not part of the WADA code. But as I've said before, the Epic is a private event and they can make any rules they want. So really no point getting offended and starting threads on a subject that has the most hypocrisy attached to it out of all governance issues in modern life. Problem is that part of "doing the time for the crime" should include listing all sources of dope, doctors or suppliers and anyone that they know about that also was using the same source, bulk buying etc. If this was done, then I would say, invite them back with open arms. But this whole, I dont know how I got bust etc milarkly gets the sport nowhere. Look at Valverde....Mr peaks 365 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon29er Posted March 30, 2017 Share I dont hold anything personally against known dopers, in fact ride with one or two regularly in the morning and they are very friendly and nice individuals. But I still dont think they should be allowed to compete in races against those that are clean and trying to make a living from the sports. I know its going to have a financial impact for the individual regarding sponsors. But the sponsors money should be going to young, clean talent. There is still a "market" for the past dopers, but I just dont think its at the front of the field taking sponsorship opportunities from clean riders.Sponsors want exposure and results for their cash. They are not a charity. In pro cycling we have the so called new generation. Yet all the big races are being won by very much the old generation. Except a few wins by the impressively clean Sky, who from the new gen has really done anything of note in a major race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pe3nguin Posted March 30, 2017 Share The issue of performance enhancing drugs is as finely nuanced as a felony.I rob a bank, I get caught. They lock me away AND take back the money. I can be rehabilitated through a prison sentence.I use a banned substance to enhance my training. I get caught. I get banned BUT the benefit of those drugs is now in my system. I smashed two years of training into 6 months, and can still come back strong after rehabilitation. But now what about murder, nothing compensates for taking another life.I dont think it is as simple as comparing a doping ban to serving jail time. There are more factors at play and should be evaluated as such. On the topic of performance enhancing drugs...Can one ever be rehabilitated? You could ban me for 6 years, I still have the benefit of training with the aid of banned substances before the ban. I went next level.. I'm glad I dont have to make the rules, but dopers definitely benefit on a physical level from their cheating long after the drugs leave their system. The moral stigma that will always follow them is another issue.[Edit]: grammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon29er Posted March 30, 2017 Share Problem is that part of "doing the time for the crime" should include listing all sources of dope, doctors or suppliers and anyone that they know about that also was using the same source, bulk buying etc. If this was done, then I would say, invite them back with open arms. But this whole, I dont know how I got bust etc milarkly gets the sport nowhere. Look at Valverde....Mr peaks 365I don't disagree. But that is not what WADA require. The real issue is how if you spill the beans it's all over, Rover. If you keep quiet and take your ban you come back and are welcomed back with open arms. If you beat the rap, you are even more welcome. Look at how many riders congratulated Impey on beating his charges. David Millar is the best example. Confessed to 3 uses of EPO in a police cell after 48 hours interrogation, did not name a name and today has a job with BC, a clothing range with Castelli, commentating gigs and drives a Maserati. Yet the guys who confess? They are farked for life. As for AV, not sure why he bothered with Fuentes, he is SO MUCH better clean than he was with blood bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon29er Posted March 30, 2017 Share SnipCan one ever be rehabilitated? You could ban me for 6 years, I still have the benefit of training with the aid of banned substances before the ban. I went next level.. I'm glad I dont have to make the rules, but dopers definitely benefit on a physical level from their cheating long after the drugs leave their system. The moral stigma that will always follow them is another issue. [Edit]: grammerI agree 100%. It is wrong. But the rules of the game allow it. I agree they should not be but I don't think we should blame the athlete for getting caught if he has served his time. The rules are wrong but they allow it. We don't have to like them but we are not the judge and jury. Look at Justin Gatlin. He should be nowhere near an athletics track. But he is. How much moral stigma does GH have? Does he give one f*** that he was a huge doper when he checks out his clothing range, his development team, his Gran Fondo, as he travels the world as a fêted guest and checks out his bank balance. Cadel Evans went to Ferrari for "a training plan" and won the TDF. Does he give one f*** that he was on a programme when he travels the world as a fêted guest and checks out his bank balance. Look at Jens Voigt. Universally loved. But anyone who thinks he never doped is extremely naive. Would he be less loved had he been caught? I don't think so. It's not an easy issue as you say and I'm glad I don't make the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Dale Posted March 30, 2017 Share Both individuals were fined and did their time. Any further complaining is just a storm in a tea cup. Or unnecessary whining. The Epic drew a line in the sand.It demonstrates a stance against dopping.It my not be the harshest stance. It remains an action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterbean Posted March 30, 2017 Share Sponsors want exposure and results for their cash. They are not a charity. In pro cycling we have the so called new generation. Yet all the big races are being won by very much the old generation. Except a few wins by the impressively clean Sky, who from the new gen has really done anything of note in a major race?Peter Sagan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydude Posted March 30, 2017 Share What about doing the time for your crime? In a modern democratic society why release any criminal from incarceration ever? It would be outrageous to think that this is how society operates and I really think it is no different for cyclists. If the penalty is 6 months, 2 years or 4 years, why should they not be allowed to compete once the time is done? Is that not how civilised society behaves? Rehabilitation being a major advance in mankind from medieval justice? What is hypocritical is the Epic with their own pseudo rules that are not part of the WADA code. But as I've said before, the Epic is a private event and they can make any rules they want. So really no point getting offended and starting threads on a subject that has the most hypocrisy attached to it out of all governance issues in modern life.**** rob one of your best posts [emoji106] Just one question about being a "private event". They might be, but they have been granted UCI status since 2005. Therefore they should fall under the UCI rules? I have a suspicion that if somebody would challenge the Epic ban at the Court of Arbitration of Sport they would have a good case to win. And for everyone's interest, including mine, the Epic is classified SHC (stage hors categorie) by the UCI, which is their highest classification. There are only five stage races in the world with the SHC classification and the other four are: Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a España and the Cyprys Sunshine Cup. Winning GC earns 160 UCI points for men and women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Posted March 30, 2017 Share Sponsors want exposure and results for their cash. They are not a charity. In pro cycling we have the so called new generation. Yet all the big races are being won by very much the old generation. Except a few wins by the impressively clean Sky, who from the new gen has really done anything of note in a major race?That statement is inaccurate or are you only referring to Grand Tours or only the TDF because there are a whole lot of new generation riders winning all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldron Posted March 30, 2017 Share What about doing the time for your crime? In a modern democratic society why release any criminal from incarceration ever? It would be outrageous to think that this is how society operates and I really think it is no different for cyclists. If the penalty is 6 months, 2 years or 4 years, why should they not be allowed to compete once the time is done? Is that not how civilised society behaves? Rehabilitation being a major advance in mankind from medieval justice? What is hypocritical is the Epic with their own pseudo rules that are not part of the WADA code. But as I've said before, the Epic is a private event and they can make any rules they want. So really no point getting offended and starting threads on a subject that has the most hypocrisy attached to it out of all governance issues in modern life.I'm not sure incarceration is the right example to use as there is no incarnation in this case. I prefer the lawyer/doctor/accountant example - if any of these professionals get bust they are removed from their respective organisation and are no longer trusted in their field. The penalty for doping is almost laughable - you don't get to race your bike for a while. That's the entire penalty - no racing your bike. You can ride all you like, shop,live, go on holiday, become a lawyer/doctor/accountant. How do you expect rehabilitation when the punishment is an extended rest break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Dassie Posted March 30, 2017 Share Everyone has their personal viewpoints, but does it truly affect you on a personal level? If it does or the angst it generates on a personal level has that much of an effect, does one keep on lashing out about it, or get involved directly?Donate money, attend club/rider meetings, hold CSA or SAIDS to account or even volunteer time and undertstanding of the process. The fact is that the Cape Epic were the only and first event of the time to take a stance, the founder himself has explained this at length and the reasoning behind the date. Now again we're not happy, we can't keep shifting the goal posts and blaming people outside the process for there not being enough accountability. It's not perfect and not beyond criticism, but it's been a hell of a lot more proactive than what most other people have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcza Posted March 30, 2017 Share Ban dopers......then invite known dopers. Strong stance against doping or just window dressing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikkelz Posted March 30, 2017 Share Awesome, it's nearly Friday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldron Posted March 30, 2017 Share Everyone has their personal viewpoints, but does it truly affect you on a personal level? If it does or the angst it generates on a personal level has that much of an effect, does one keep on lashing out about it, or get involved directly?Donate money, attend club/rider meetings, hold CSA or SAIDS to account or even volunteer time and undertstanding of the process. The fact is that the Cape Epic were the only and first event of the time to take a stance, the founder himself has explained this at length and the reasoning behind the date. Now again we're not happy, we can't keep shifting the goal posts and blaming people outside the process for there not being enough accountability. It's not perfect and not beyond criticism, but it's been a hell of a lot more proactive than what most other people have done. I'm guessing the Epic took it's stance because of public sentiment/outcry. Hopefully if we keep crying out the glorification of past dopers will stop too. Hopefully if we stay vocal about the issue then Lance and the rest of the stained generation will stay out of the lime light created by their cheating. Personally I'm over the angst/drame/emotion - I keep speaking out because cheating should not be rewarded in my bool of morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pure Savage Posted March 30, 2017 Share Sponsors want exposure and results for their cash. They are not a charity. In pro cycling we have the so called new generation. Yet all the big races are being won by very much the old generation. Except a few wins by the impressively clean Sky, who from the new gen has really done anything of note in a major race?Sagan, van Averamat, Kittel, de Mare, Turbo Durbo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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