Suspension Grease

[Bos]

I've been wondering about this for a while, but I'm now convinced after riding my old airspring in the pike for the W2W the last 2 months (better smallbump performance) and then installing the newer Debonair3/C spring again. The new spring has much more friction, I can actually hear the oring slide while pushing the fork in and out. 

@drooI do wonder how much oring sizes play a role? Like I mentioned, in my specific case, my fork had 2 years of use with the old Debonair B spring, and the new spring only about a year, but there is a marked difference. I'm sure there is variation in seals? Have you seen a lot of this? I will open mine up again and measure all the seals and parts to see where and why there might be differences. Also, If the oring from the old spring installed on the new spring feels better.

[droo]

1 hour ago, Bos said:

I've been wondering about this for a while, but I'm now convinced after riding my old airspring in the pike for the W2W the last 2 months (better smallbump performance) and then installing the newer Debonair3/C spring again. The new spring has much more friction, I can actually hear the oring slide while pushing the fork in and out. 

@drooI do wonder how much oring sizes play a role? Like I mentioned, in my specific case, my fork had 2 years of use with the old Debonair B spring, and the new spring only about a year, but there is a marked difference. I'm sure there is variation in seals? Have you seen a lot of this? I will open mine up again and measure all the seals and parts to see where and why there might be differences. Also, If the oring from the old spring installed on the new spring feels better.

Seals are exactly the same on both springs. The important bit when doing the spring service is to use the right lubricant (DSG and 0W30) .

 

The small bump on the C1 isn't nearly as good as the B1 - the C1 has smaller negative air volume because people were complaining about the fork sagging in its travel under the weight of the bike, so "they weren't getting the travel they paid for". To me (and the guys at Vorsprung and Shockcraft) that sounds like the opposite of a problem.

[DieselnDust]

1 hour ago, droo said:

Seals are exactly the same on both springs. The important bit when doing the spring service is to use the right lubricant (DSG and 0W30) .

 

The small bump on the C1 isn't nearly as good as the B1 - the C1 has smaller negative air volume because people were complaining about the fork sagging in its travel under the weight of the bike, so "they weren't getting the travel they paid for". To me (and the guys at Vorsprung and Shockcraft) that sounds like the opposite of a problem.

manufactures take the average American mtb rider opinions too seriously and end up fixing things that don't need fixing

[Bos]

1 hour ago, droo said:

Seals are exactly the same on both springs. The important bit when doing the spring service is to use the right lubricant (DSG and 0W30) .

 

The small bump on the C1 isn't nearly as good as the B1 - the C1 has smaller negative air volume because people were complaining about the fork sagging in its travel under the weight of the bike, so "they weren't getting the travel they paid for". To me (and the guys at Vorsprung and Shockcraft) that sounds like the opposite of a problem.

Well Its like for like.. (the grease I use) It must then be the O-ring. I will take the o-ring off the old spring and put it on the new spring to see if the friction is less. I do put a little bit of oil in the air spring although I only have 10W.

 With regard to the two airsprings:

I don't know If it is just placebo, but to me the newer C spring has a better mid and end to the stroke. I mean, I just had the B1 on and did 1000km now, I installed the C1 footnut which will, in essence give back the 1cm that you lose with the sag on the bigger neg spring. But I could never use all the travel and the ramp up at the end of the stroke is quite harsh. The C1, has less small bump for sure, but it deals better with midsize and bigger hits. 

If you tell me there should be no difference, then its down to air pressures I am willing to live with. I do feel the B1 gives up its travel easier going down steeps, and perhaps because of that, perhaps I put in more pressure, since the smallbump does not suffer because of that. As for the C1, I end up running less pressure than what I typically think I need, and It ends up being perfect. 

[droo]

15 minutes ago, Bos said:

Well Its like for like.. (the grease I use) It must then be the O-ring. I will take the o-ring off the old spring and put it on the new spring to see if the friction is less. I do put a little bit of oil in the air spring although I only have 10W.

 With regard to the two airsprings:

I don't know If it is just placebo, but to me the newer C spring has a better mid and end to the stroke. I mean, I just had the B1 on and did 1000km now, I installed the C1 footnut which will, in essence give back the 1cm that you lose with the sag on the bigger neg spring. But I could never use all the travel and the ramp up at the end of the stroke is quite harsh. The C1, has less small bump for sure, but it deals better with midsize and bigger hits. 

If you tell me there should be no difference, then its down to air pressures I am willing to live with. I do feel the B1 gives up its travel easier going down steeps, and perhaps because of that, perhaps I put in more pressure, since the smallbump does not suffer because of that. As for the C1, I end up running less pressure than what I typically think I need, and It ends up being perfect. 

I run 25% more pressure in my C1 spring than I did in the A1 for the same sag, so that's not your imagination. The O rings making a difference definitely is. Both springs use the same size and spec - a Q2-214 NBR70 quad ring on the piston, and 3 x 10 NBR70 o-ring and 10mm ID scraper on the air shaft. The piston and shaft are exactly the same, the only things that change are the lower seal head and bottom nut, which you can get in an 'upgrade' kit.

 

The balance between small bump and ramp is that the negative volume has to come from somewhere, and without increasing the length of the lower tube the only place it can come from is the positive chamber. They've used a few tricks to get as much as they can out, like using the inside of the spring shaft as extra air volume, but that's about as far as you can go. This is why you'll battle to bottom out the C1 on anything under 160mm at your weight.

[Bos]

17 hours ago, droo said:

I run 25% more pressure in my C1 spring than I did in the A1 for the same sag, so that's not your imagination. The O rings making a difference definitely is. Both springs use the same size and spec - a Q2-214 NBR70 quad ring on the piston, and 3 x 10 NBR70 o-ring and 10mm ID scraper on the air shaft. The piston and shaft are exactly the same, the only things that change are the lower seal head and bottom nut, which you can get in an 'upgrade' kit.

 

The balance between small bump and ramp is that the negative volume has to come from somewhere, and without increasing the length of the lower tube the only place it can come from is the positive chamber. They've used a few tricks to get as much as they can out, like using the inside of the spring shaft as extra air volume, but that's about as far as you can go. This is why you'll battle to bottom out the C1 on anything under 160mm at your weight.

Droo, Are you sure you dont have those the wrong way around? It makes more sense that you have to put more pressure in C1, as it sags 10mm under its own weight aswel as have a larger negative spring, therefore it will give that first inch up very easily. Thats why I find I have to put more PSI in the old spring (A1). Am I right in saying, the flipside of the smaller negative spring on C1 is the larger positive chamber, which allows for slightly mellower ramp at the end? 

Anyway. Off topic, but on the grease.. one. My everyday red grease that I use for everything else does not seem to last on pivots. The chumps at the W2W made short work of blasting my pivots clear of any wanted grease and I had a very squeaky bike on day 2. What is a good tough grease, like that white stuff the factory often uses on the first time builds for pivots? My red grease is obviously not the right stuff. 

 

[droo]

54 minutes ago, Bos said:

Droo, Are you sure you dont have those the wrong way around? It makes more sense that you have to put more pressure in C1, as it sags 10mm under its own weight aswel as have a larger negative spring, therefore it will give that first inch up very easily. Thats why I find I have to put more PSI in the old spring (A1). Am I right in saying, the flipside of the smaller negative spring on C1 is the larger positive chamber, which allows for slightly mellower ramp at the end? 

Anyway. Off topic, but on the grease.. one. My everyday red grease that I use for everything else does not seem to last on pivots. The chumps at the W2W made short work of blasting my pivots clear of any wanted grease and I had a very squeaky bike on day 2. What is a good tough grease, like that white stuff the factory often uses on the first time builds for pivots? My red grease is obviously not the right stuff. 

 

My bad, I've got the B1 spring not the C1...

 

The positive chamber in the C1 is the same size as the B1 - the dimple is in the same place, so the piston can't really move much. AFAIK the reason for the ramp up has more to do with the smaller size of the negative spring, which pulls more of a vacuum as it moves through the stroke, but I'll have to do some more reading on this to confirm. Hopefully someone's plotted spring rate curves somewhere, since I don't have a spring tester.

 

As for pivots - nickel or alu based anti seize will last orders of magnitude longer than grease, you'll need less of it, and it's less of a hack to deal with at service time as well.

[Bos]

2 hours ago, droo said:

My bad, I've got the B1 spring not the C1...

 

The positive chamber in the C1 is the same size as the B1 - the dimple is in the same place, so the piston can't really move much. AFAIK the reason for the ramp up has more to do with the smaller size of the negative spring, which pulls more of a vacuum as it moves through the stroke, but I'll have to do some more reading on this to confirm. Hopefully someone's plotted spring rate curves somewhere, since I don't have a spring tester.

 

As for pivots - nickel or alu based anti seize will last orders of magnitude longer than grease, you'll need less of it, and it's less of a hack to deal with at service time as well.

I have wasted hours on MTBR -Pike forums, there are some curves and models I will post some when I have the time. I half recall it was also part of the origional marketing(less ramp)

With regard to the grease, plain old "copper slip" ? Cool thanks. 

https://www.takealot.com/spanjaard-copper-compound-additive-100g/PLID36957528?gclid=CjwKCAiAv_KMBhAzEiwAs-rX1Eh_lkF3TvP93hx70mZzFbUkikEsLYWhUHuTUIc_L4uRjU0mw-7vVBoCZy4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#:~:text=Share-,Spanjaard - Copper Compound Additive - 100g,-Spanjaard

[droo]

5 minutes ago, Bos said:

With regard to the grease, plain old "copper slip" ? Cool thanks. 

Preferably an alu based one. Copper will work, but there's still a potential difference between it and alu so you'll still potentially get galvanic corrosion happening if the grease base gets washed out. Park do one, otherwise you might find at a bolt shop.

[Headshot]

21 minutes ago, droo said:

Preferably an alu based one. Copper will work, but there's still a potential difference between it and alu so you'll still potentially get galvanic corrosion happening if the grease base gets washed out. Park do one, otherwise you might find at a bolt shop.

Just to be clear, you're talking about using ant-seize on the bearings themselves i.e after popping the seals out to get at the balls?

[droo]

8 minutes ago, Headshot said:

Just to be clear, you're talking about using ant-seize on the bearings themselves i.e after popping the seals out to get at the balls?

No, on the pivot axles. That's where the creaking comes from.

 

Once bearings are done they're done, replace. The only time you'll ever catch me repacking a sealed bearing is if there's no stock of replacements.

[DieselnDust]

use an Aluminium Complex soap grease  or a bentonite (clay) soap grease. for pivot shafts or bearing housings

Both of these have very high corrosion resistance and load carrying capacity

Al Complex grease example is Valvoline Earth Alucom 1.5 or Chevron Texclad AL EP2

Edited November 23, 2021 by DieselnDust