V12man Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 What I don't get though: To be only used when writing or when studying as well?If you are poorly prepared, you will never perform properly..... it never fails to astound me how people believe you can cram a years work into a week... and how poorly people understand how to study to be most effective. Rather speak to a psychiatrist who knows better than me how to approach it properly - Ritalin is one of the many drugs I have never written a script for - viagra is another.... well outside my scope of practice. Like Lance... prepare properly..... in every possible way.
V12man Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Exactly why I am so skeptical... these guys are generally dehydrated after a stage, half of them on Asthma meds, and yet only 3 guys over the threshold in the last decade. And Chris is double the threshold. This is going to have to be some seriously special lab test... Just thinking of the myriad of ways to crook it a little (just kidding Patch ) Only 3 guys you know of were convicted..... how many were tested and how many had explanations that were accepted? My understanding is that in SA they often don't even bother with testing for Salbutamol in standard drug screenings - maybe it's not the best bang for the buck for the limited amount they have to spend on tests? Something that would make sense to me given resourcing constraints and the limited benefits (if any) to it's use. The one thing I DO know - assuming normal clearance rates and hydration levels, any person who takes enough inhaled salbutamol to approach those levels is going to feel terrible as a result of the side effects - look at the effects in one of the studies I published - and those are with small doses of inhaled..... imagine going 8 or 16 times that.....
SwissVan Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 I am however in awe of his ability to shoot red lights at speed in jhb traffic....And there we have the next Friday fight thread: “You are never to pro to stop at red lights” Please send photos
EmptyB Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Only 3 guys you know of were convicted..... how many were tested and how many had explanations that were accepted? My understanding is that in SA they often don't even bother with testing for Salbutamol in standard drug screenings - maybe it's not the best bang for the buck for the limited amount they have to spend on tests? Something that would make sense to me given resourcing constraints and the limited benefits (if any) to it's use. The one thing I DO know - assuming normal clearance rates and hydration levels, any person who takes enough inhaled salbutamol to approach those levels is going to feel terrible as a result of the side effects - look at the effects in one of the studies I published - and those are with small doses of inhaled..... imagine going 8 or 16 times that.....Thanks for your input, very interesting. How the hell could Froome even ride properly with the side effects described at those levels??
V12man Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 And there we have the next Friday fight thread: “You are never to pro to stop at red lights in a car” Please send photosFixed it for you....
V12man Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Thanks for your input, very interesting. How the hell could Froome even ride properly with the side effects described at those levels??Well - there is a difference between levels of metabolite in urine and levels of active drug in your bloodstream/tissues - the 2 don't necessarily relate too well (they might, but it's not guaranteed)
Gen Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Well - there is a difference between levels of metabolite in urine and levels of active drug in your bloodstream/tissues - the 2 don't necessarily relate too well (they might, but it's not guaranteed)V12 would a kidney issue flare up and then disappear within 24hrs..would it not cause noticeable pain? (Sorry if you have mentioned this already.) Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
'Dale Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 As I understand it then. Strategy here is not to go for something that can be tested in a lab like his dehydration process, etc.The legal team is going for something that is medically plausible. (at least according to the leak at L'Equipe)
V12man Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 V12 would a kidney issue flare up and then disappear within 24hrs..would it not cause noticeable pain? (Sorry if you have mentioned this already.) Sent from my SM-G950F using TapatalkThey can and do flare and recover quickly - but this is more to do with internal filtering rates and blood flow to the kidney (which impacts filtering rates) (which can be impacted by many factors - drugs especially) - not so much with physical things that can cause pain - like kidney stones for instance - those are pretty obvious. If the kidney were a car engine, then it works fine between 800rpm and 7000rpm (but the outputs are different (power, fuel consumption, co2 production etc) but its within "normal bounds - above and below those rpm's damage may occur but the motor still runs.... for a while... then the pain starts.... drop back into normal range quickly enough and you don't notice pain.
Gen Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 They can and do flare and recover quickly - but this is more to do with internal filtering rates and blood flow to the kidney (which impacts filtering rates) (which can be impacted by many factors - drugs especially) - not so much with physical things that can cause pain - like kidney stones for instance - those are pretty obvious. If the kidney were a car engine, then it works fine between 800rpm and 7000rpm (but the outputs are different (power, fuel consumption, co2 production etc) but its within "normal bounds - above and below those rpm's damage may occur but the motor still runs.... for a while... then the pain starts.... drop back into normal range quickly enough and you don't notice pain.Thx When I read kidney malfunction all I got were cold sweats from when I have issues..cause that's just pain.[emoji23]. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
V12man Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 As I understand it then. Strategy here is not to go for something that can be tested in a lab like his dehydration process, etc.The legal team is going for something that is medically plausible. (at least according to the leak at L'Equipe)I think they will be better at it than just creating a hypothesis that is plausable - that won't go down well on it's own. There are 2 factors I think they will emphasies - given that the test requires a concentration to be exceeded - 1000mcg/liter is the threshold I believe. So - the urine sample could contain 100mcg in 100cc's of urine at the max amount to pass Lets just assume the stage is 10 hours long (makes math easier) - the kidney excretes 10mcg per hour of salbutamol metabolite - the question is - what if he is dehydrated and the kidney still filters 100mcg of metabolite in 10 hours (because it's not metabolised in the kidney - more likely the liver and other tissues - the kidney just lets what it has pass through) but the kidney (by design) filters less water through - so lets say 50ml water(urine) - then he is at 2000mcg/l - massive fail..... but only a 50% reduction in urine output - so well within the bounds of normal kidney function. So essentially what I am saying is that using a urinary concentration as a measure is physiologically meaningless for determining salbutamol intake (which is what has a maximum dosage limit - and there is just an assumption that a urinary metabolite level of over 1000mcg/l means you exceeded the allowable max dose - this is simply not the case - as I tried to demonstrate above) - as opposed to Clembuterol, where ANY concentration of metabolite is a fail - and the same for steroids, stimulants etc.... One might also take the tack that the max dose allowed is the same if you are 100kg or 50kg bodymass - but the therapeutic dose delivered is 100% different between those 2 individuals - and that seems a bit arbitrary to me.... kind of unfair to let one person have twice the concentration of the other and call them the same..... that's just not logical.... you don't give kids adult doses of medicine do you.... OK - done for today....
V12man Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Thx When I read kidney malfunction all I got were cold sweats from when I have issues..cause that's just pain.[emoji23]. Sent from my SM-G950F using TapatalkI would just discount the journalists use of the word "malfunction" as an attention seeking device.
EmptyB Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 What a mess...just sort this sh*t out before any GT starts!!!!
Gen Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 I would just discount the journalists use of the word "malfunction" as an attention seeking device.Perhaps lost in translation too. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Frosty Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 I’ll agree on the attention seeking bit, more than lost in translation. Juicy gossip vs (boring) facts... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Gen Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 I’ll agree on the attention seeking bit, more than lost in translation. Juicy gossip vs (boring) facts... Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCould be yes..I don't speak French, the way it has been translated sounds like he needs new kidneys [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
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