Shebeen Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 Well... No indemnity form can/will indemnify the organiser against negligence. Land owners/local authorities/etc often want proof from the organisers that riders have signed indemnity forms. Event insurance will also insist on this. Organisers won't. or at least should not allow participation without an indemnity form.am actually going through this as a race organiser. Do everything I can to make sure it's acceptable and there are no glaring risks (but it's an adventure race, not a marked mtb course!)
seven Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 UCI (and therefor CSA) have explisit requirements for medical support (number/type of vehicles, number/type of staff, etc) at events. This needs to be outlined by the organiser and submitted to SAPS before the event. If something happens, and the info in the Safety Docs submitted to SAPS is not what is happening on the ground, someone will be in ****...
Spinnekop Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 Different question - what do YOU want from the organisers ? Take responsibility. Don't load EVERYTHING on the participant. Otherwise they can just stay at home and ride in the traffic. You lose.
Spinnekop Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 UCI (and therefor CSA) have explisit requirements for medical support (number/type of vehicles, number/type of staff, etc) at events. This needs to be outlined by the organiser and submitted to SAPS before the event. If something happens, and the info in the Safety Docs submitted to SAPS is not what is happening on the ground, someone will be in ****...Like the VARIOUS races that were held without the requirements last year because CSA was cash strapped and did not have insurance at the events?
Patensie Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 I studied law of contracts and deliicts in 1997. The memory is not what it was and, therefore, i may say something that is totally wrong: 1) when you enter an event you accept certain risks that a reasonable person will accept. You're not playing golf or drinking tea... 2) organisers may limit their liability regarding negligence, but not with respect to gross negligence (culpa lata)/intent (in all forms, including dolus eventualis). 3) if you're so worried about suing organisers - why enter? You should know your own limits and participate accordingly. Nobody is forcing you to do the road gap.
bikebloke Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 They do. If your bike gets stolen at an event - would you like to sue the organisers?If you fall? If they use your photo? etc etc etc… It does not cover against negligence, and that cannot be signed away (as stated by several) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- we arent discussing crime we are discussing injury etc in case of organiser negligence ............so "indemnities forms dont really mean squat" #whysoargumentative
ChrisF Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 UCI (and therefor CSA) have explisit requirements for medical support (number/type of vehicles, number/type of staff, etc) at events. This needs to be outlined by the organiser and submitted to SAPS before the event. If something happens, and the info in the Safety Docs submitted to SAPS is not what is happening on the ground, someone will be in ****... Also remember that "events", ALL events not just cycling, are governed by the By-Laws of the area. The Western Cape certainly has strict rules in play that organisers have to adhere to. No indemnity form can sign away those rights. As for the rest, when I put on my plastic helmet I KNOW the risks !!
seven Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 They do. If your bike gets stolen at an event - would you like to sue the organisers?If you fall? If they use your photo? etc etc etc… It does not cover against negligence, and that cannot be signed away (as stated by several) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- we arent discussing crime we are discussing injury etc in case of organiser negligence ............so "indemnities forms dont really mean squat" #whysoargumentative Theft is also often (most of the times) included in these forms, so why is it not relevant?
bikebloke Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 Theft is also often (most of the times) included in these forms, so why is it not relevant?
maidenmole Posted July 30, 2018 Author Posted July 30, 2018 Ah, so this issue is also a question of assurance. How do we, as riders know for sure that race organisers are indeed complying with prescripts of CSA, local by-laws, land owner requirements, sporting acts, etc? We don't. They don't declare it anywhere. Unless being a CSA sanctioned event means CSA have done the assurance of risks etc and we can rest assured they've got everything in place to put on a safe event?
bertusras Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 I studied law of contracts and deliicts in 1997. The memory is not what it was and, therefore, i may say something that is totally wrong: 1) when you enter an event you accept certain risks that a reasonable person will accept. You're not playing golf or drinking tea... 2) organisers may limit their liability regarding negligence, but not with respect to gross negligence (culpa lata)/intent (in all forms, including dolus eventualis). 3) if you're so worried about suing organisers - why enter? You should know your own limits and participate accordingly. Nobody is forcing you to do the road gap. Isn't that exactly the point of these indemnities? The organisers indemnify themselves from reasonable risks. Surely you can't expect to hold the organisers accountable if some pillock brings down half the peleton, or if you bomb your way down a hill straight into a tree. There are inherent risks associated with our sport. However, they can be held accountable for gross negligence, and the courts would definitely apply the reasonable man test to the situation in question should it come to that.
ChrisF Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 Theft is a reality in SA .... You dont leave your bike unlocked outside the corner cafe .... not for long ... Why do we think it is safe to do so at a cycling event ??? My wife stays at my bike while I register, or it stays locked on the car while I register ..... and still I take the odd chance .... Friend's bike got "liberated" at an event a few weeks back - left it unattended for a moment .... This is Africa - we should know better !!! Or do we think our event fee resolves us from common sense ? PS - I dont organise cycling events, just applying some logic. Having arranged other events may just help me to better grasp BOTH sides of the coin ..
maidenmole Posted July 30, 2018 Author Posted July 30, 2018 am actually going through this as a race organiser. Do everything I can to make sure it's acceptable and there are no glaring risks (but it's an adventure race, not a marked mtb course!)Thanks for contributing from the other side of the coin Good to hear you've got a commitment to do everything you can, so I'm curious as to how you could provide assurance to your participants of this? I suspect most organisers just take a chance with such wide ranging waivers and know that when even registration comes we'll just sign and not put up a fight.
maidenmole Posted July 30, 2018 Author Posted July 30, 2018 However, they can be held accountable for gross negligence, and the courts would definitely apply the reasonable man test to the situation in question should it come to that.Sure they can be held for gross negligence in a court given you're up for the fight and have the cash BUT what if you're effing dead because of the gross negligence in the first place?
seven Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 Ah, so this issue is also a question of assurance. How do we, as riders know for sure that race organisers are indeed complying with prescripts of CSA, local by-laws, land owner requirements, sporting acts, etc? We don't. They don't declare it anywhere. Unless being a CSA sanctioned event means CSA have done the assurance of risks etc and we can rest assured they've got everything in place to put on a safe event? Well... not all events are CSA sanctioned, but all events fall under the Sport & Rec Act., and must comply with the Act. It is managed by the local SAPS via the provincial commissioner. I know of many event that do not go through the months of work involved in this; but it is ultimately illegal to host an event without it...
bertusras Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 Sure they can be held for gross negligence in a court given you're up for the fight and have the cash BUT what if you're effing dead because of the gross negligence in the first place? The same applies when you walk into a shopping center past the disclaimer sign. If some idiot drops a shopfront on you and you die, what are you going to do?
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