The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

Please someone tell me on which aspect I should make a concession.

 

Edit: where a concession would be expected.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Odinson

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Puerile vegan memes are all the rage across the threads, but god forbid a defensive omnivore is triggered by facts, logic and basic tenets of ethics.

 

Myles, whether exploiting animals is as old as humanity or not is irrelevant in 2019. The planet is burning and the billions upon billions of animals are having their throats slit to satisfy our tastebuds. We can’t eat our cake and have it. If we want to save this planet and do right by our fellow earthlings, we need to leave them of our table and backs. It’s that simple.

IN YOUR OPINION. Backed by studies of questionable origin, funded by pro-vegan / anti-meat groups, emotion and twisted stats, meta-analyses based on flawed data (GIGO, quesitonnaires, improper data etc) and questionnaires, all of which are sorely lacking in quality and substance. 

 

Agreed the planet is burning. Agreed we need to reduce meat consumption AND veg consumption (due to the multi-varied problems that that creates by itself, like monocropping, sheer volume of land use, deforestation etc) as well as various other things. NONE of the proponents on the hunting thread, nor this thread, are arguing for leaving things as they are. You're discarding everything that comes against your zealous world-view, in what seems like some weird, twisted form of post-purchase justification. And, you're attacking the people who want to do something else, while you toe the line of all or nothing, death to the non-believers. 

 

FACT is, humans are omnivorous mammals. With a meat-based diet, we get all the nutrients and minerals necesasary for a full and healthy life. The tie between adequate consumption of animal flesh, saturated fat and diabetes, heart problems and cholestorol has been debunked numerous times, by numerous studies (yes, the same study types as YOU cite, due to absence of verifiable long-term data that doesn't rely on questionnaires) yet you continue to attack the people, studies and opinions as if they are somehow less moral than yours. 

 

This is despite teh data that shows that the US "scientific" guidelines ostracised the German scientific guidelines in the wake of WW2, on order to boost the likes of Kellogg's, Cocal Cola, wheat & corn production in the US farming fraternity. Maybe do some research on that, and see what happens. But no, I suspect you'll discount that as ignorantly as you discount counter-arguments that don't fit your guidelines on moral superiority. And that, is sad. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[davetapson]

 

 

Teh SPUR that was in Wandsworth, UK, was horrible, though.

Can't be as bad as Spur in Auckland...

[Odinson]

IN YOUR OPINION. Backed by studies of questionable origin, funded by pro-vegan / anti-meat groups, emotion and twisted stats, meta-analyses based on flawed data (GIGO, quesitonnaires, improper data etc) and questionnaires, all of which are sorely lacking in quality and substance.

 

Agreed the planet is burning. Agreed we need to reduce meat consumption AND veg consumption (due to the multi-varied problems that that creates by itself, like monocropping, sheer volume of land use, deforestation etc) as well as various other things. NONE of the proponents on the hunting thread, nor this thread, are arguing for leaving things as they are. You're discarding everything that comes against your zealous world-view, in what seems like some weird, twisted form of post-purchase justification. And, you're attacking the people who want to do something else, while you toe the line of all or nothing, death to the non-believers.

 

FACT is, humans are omnivorous mammals. With a meat-based diet, we get all the nutrients and minerals necesasary for a full and healthy life. The tie between adequate consumption of animal flesh, saturated fat and diabetes, heart problems and cholestorol has been debunked numerous times, by numerous studies (yes, the same study types as YOU cite, due to absence of verifiable long-term data that doesn't rely on questionnaires) yet you continue to attack the people, studies and opinions as if they are somehow less moral than yours.

 

This is despite teh data that shows that the US "scientific" guidelines ostracised the German scientific guidelines in the wake of WW2. Maybe do some research on that, and see what happens. But no, I suspect you'll discount that as ignorantly as you discount counter-arguments that don't fit your guidelines on moral superiority. And that, is sad.

So, in essence, ‘vegan conspiracy agenda’?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

So, in essence, ‘vegan conspiracy agenda’?

No. And that is more evidence of what I've just said. 

 

I don't need an agenda. I don't have one, either. You do, though. 

 

EDIT: Or so it seems, on this particular concept / topic. I go on the data. You only go on data that supports your poosition (this is proven through this and the other thread, as well as any other topic related to diet and / or consumption of meat) whereas others are prepared to compromise. You're not, by teh looks of things. 

 

BTW: Not saying that your chosen lifestyle is incorrect and / or immoral. Full power to you for removing meat and having to juggle different foods to get the same vit & mineral complex that comes from a simple piece of beef. But don't proseletyse. It's something you detest in terms of religion, but adopt all too easily when it comes to your zealotry on this subject. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[Patchelicious]

So, in essence, ‘vegan conspiracy agenda’?

You couldn’t have proven Myles right more efficiently, even if you tried.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Patchelicious

[Odinson]

You couldn’t have proven Myles right more efficiently, even if you tried.

I’m in bed, on my phone. Long replies are not to be expected.

[Patchelicious]

No. And that is more evidence of what I've just said.

 

I don't need an agenda. I don't have one, either. You do, though.

 

EDIT: Or so it seems, on this particular concept / topic. I go on the data. You only go on data that supports your poosition (this is proven through this and the other thread, as well as any other topic related to diet and / or consumption of meat) whereas others are prepared to compromise. You're not, by teh looks of things.

 

BTW: Not saying that your chosen lifestyle is incorrect and / or immoral. Full power to you for removing meat and having to juggle different foods to get the same vit & mineral complex that comes from a simple piece of beef. But don't proseletyse. It's something you detest in terms of religion, but adopt all too easily when it comes to your zealotry on this subject.

Once you are honest and accept that Odi chose this from a moral point, it makes sense. But when trying to point this out and actually stand up for him for this point of view, you get labeled a dirty politician.

[Patchelicious]

I’m in bed, on my phone. Long replies are not to be expected.

Good job, that post just helped me lose my appetite and therefore reduced my meat intake a little.

 

#EveryBitCounts

[Odinson]

Myles, let’s break it down.

 

Ethics: unnecessary exploitation of animals is unethical.

Environmental: plant-based diets are lowest carbon. IPCC report latest example.

Health: less animal products, more whole plant foods = better health outcomes

 

Those points I’ve been arguing since page 1. If you wish to dispute those fundamental arguments on the basis of furious google searches, the there’s nothing I can do.

[Odinson]

Once you are honest and accept that Odi chose this from a moral point, it makes sense. But when trying to point this out and actually stand up for him for this point of view, you get labeled a dirty politician.

I initially decided to go down this path for environmental reasons. I was indifferent to the plight of animals for a long time. That came later.

 

But we need to see the bigger picture. If we destroy the environment, we kill even more animals than just those that pass through the slaughterhouse kill floor.

[WrightJnr]

I always find myself reading this thread. And every time I’m up to date with the dozen or two posts, I still have no cooking clue what’s going on .....

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I always find myself reading this thread. And every time I’m up to date with the dozen or two posts, I still have no cooking clue what’s going on .....

That's because the goalposts carry on moving. 

[Patchelicious]

Myles, let’s break it down.

 

Ethics: unnecessary exploitation of animals is unethical.

Environmental: plant-based diets are lowest carbon. IPCC report latest example.

Health: less animal products, more whole plant foods = better health outcomes

 

Those points I’ve been arguing since page 1. If you wish to dispute those fundamental arguments on the basis of furious google searches, the there’s nothing I can do.

What you argue and how you argue are both very important points of consideration, especially when trying to change other people’s point of views.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Myles, let’s break it down.

 

Ethics: unnecessary exploitation of animals is unethical.

Environmental: plant-based diets are lowest carbon. IPCC report latest example.

Health: less animal products, more whole plant foods = better health outcomes

 

Those points I’ve been arguing since page 1. If you wish to dispute those fundamental arguments on the basis of furious google searches, the there’s nothing I can do.

Dude, it's so much more nuanced than you paint it. 

 

1 - yes. But farming / raising / killing animals for food isn't unethical, in my opinion. In yours, it is. There ARE unethical farming practices, which I want to see reduced and changed. There are also unethical plant-based farming practices, if you choose to go down that wormhole (organic is an entirely different argument which is related but not worth going into here, suffice to say it's BS unless you're doing small-scale personal farming) 

 

2 - SOME plant based are lower impact ito ecological damage. Some aren't. The science (despite what you protest, via your furious google searches) isn't clear. It's not binary. It's heavily geared towards pre-conceived notions and ideals. Studies based on questionnaires are not proper evidence-based studies as they don't control for extraneous circumstances. 

 

3 - I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm wrong on some points, and wil definitely be behind you when it comes to battery farming techniques, feedlots (as seen in some of the Netflix "documentaries") and so on. But I will carry on eating meat, because I like it, and because I'm an omnivore and I would happily shoot and skin a wild animal in the search for food, if I needed to. I don't, though, and I'm happy fo that as it's convenient for me. 

 

4 - you don't. It's all or nothing. No middle ground. Heck, it's YOUR definition of veganism that you're arguing for, and YOUR moral "high ground" that informs your standpoint. A little bit of introspection, time, and attitude adjustment would go far to endearing others to your viewpoint. Stop the ad-hominems, stop the holier than thou, stop the moral superiority based on your ethical standards ito meat consumption. 

 

5 - I'm pretty sure all of the people on the Hunting thread would willingly take on a meat sub if it was affordable, tasty and readily available. I know I would, but those 3 requirements have not yet been met. They're expensive, not available in each store and most of em taste like a 3 day old McDonalds patty. Unless you go to a restaurant that specialises in vegan / veggie cuisine. That's a different story entirely. 

 

We get it. You don't like people eating animal products.   But don't let that drag you further down the rabbit hole of intolerance and zealotry. 

[davetapson]

I initially decided to go down this path for environmental reasons. I was indifferent to the plight of animals for a long time. That came later.

 

But we need to see the bigger picture. If we destroy the environment, we kill even more animals than just those that pass through the slaughterhouse kill floor.

Don't don't don't don't don't don't don't aaaaarrrghhh... fukkit.

 

Unlike cropping, which kills nothing?